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Hmm, let me put it this way...have you have ever gone to a Catholic school run by Sisters?
If so, it is a lot easier than that!
Seriously, though by the time you make it out of training you know whether or not you have the personality for the military. Show up where and when you are told, be in the proper attire and don't be a smart as* (or don't get caught being one).
I have never been given an illegal order, but I would hope that I would have the courage to do the right thing.
"have you have ever gone to a Catholic school run by Sisters?
If so, it is a lot easier than that!"
That is such a great answer! I spent several years in Catholic grade school under the watchful eye of nuns, one in particular who would have made a good basic training drill instructor. I learned the best was to stay out of trouble in her class was to "fly under the radar". In other words don't draw attention be by being really bad, academically or behavior wise, and don't be too good because then you have less room for error. That Catholic school experience came back to me in basic and I made it through with no bad experiences.
I was in the army 72-78, so I have no idea what the military is like now. I went in out of high school just as the U.S. was ending our involvement in Vietnam and beginning VOLAR (volunteer army). I had a great job doing paperwork usually in support units (not combat units) so military discipline was more relaxed in my experience. We followed standard military protocol, yes sir, no sir, a formation now and then, but it was in my experience mostly an 8 - 5 job.
As you said, following orders for me was just common sense. Show up on time in uniform, do your job well, don't bend the rules too much, and if you are a smart as*, which I could be at times, do it discretely. And when you are off duty, don't do stupid things that will get you into trouble on or off post.
The only time I questioned an order was in 1976 when we were required to take the Swine flu vaccination.
I didn't refuse it, as we didn't have a choice, but by the time we were slated to get ours news reports were talking about people getting real sick from the vaccine. I was talking about this to my workmates and got called into my NCO's office and was told not to scare the other guys. We got the shot, most of us were ill for a day or two and then back to normal. About two weeks later they put the Swine flu vaccine on hold and never resumed it.
The only time I questioned an order was in 1976 when we were required to take the Swine flu vaccination.
I didn't refuse it, as we didn't have a choice, but by the time we were slated to get ours news reports were talking about people getting real sick from the vaccine. I was talking about this to my workmates and got called into my NCO's office and was told not to scare the other guys. We got the shot, most of us were ill for a day or two and then back to normal. About two weeks later they put the Swine flu vaccine on hold and never resumed it.
I took that one, too, but I managed to jink off the scope for the anthrax shot in the 90s.
I’m not sure you guys understand what is going on today. There is a large percentage of Americans who want the constitution torn up. In fact, many think it’s a racist document. I’d put that number close to 40% of Americans and it’s only going to grow.
The current military brass in the Pentagon is left leaning, so I think they are satisfied with Biden. But let’s say that in 2024, a hardline right wing guy becomes the President and goes against what the Pentagon wants.
These current times aren’t like before when the military was immune to politicization. Those days are gone, the Pentagon is hyper politicized right now, in the bag for one party.
I don’t think it’s much of a stretch for them to tell the opposing party (Republicans) to get bent someday.
Perhaps I’m way early on this, and a scenario like this won’t play out for half a century when we are all long an buried. But surely you recognize that things today aren’t like they used to be?
Yeah, sorry, WK I just don't agree with ANY of that.
In my long experience in the military, leadership tends to be very conservative. And they take their oaths VERY seriously. It's like Ralph_Kirk said: it doesn't matter if the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs decides to go rogue. He'd have to convince everybody below him in the chain of command to also betray their oaths. If the CO of my ship told me to do something blatantly Unconstitutional, I would have told him to pound sand.
That is demonstrated in the movie I recommended before, Seven Days in May.
Spoiler
Burt Lancaster plays the Chairman of the JC, or some other senior AF 4 star who decides to hold a military coup and overthrow the president. Kirk Douglas plays an Army Colonel who finds about it and foils the attempt.
It's not like the Chairman of the JC can wave his magic wand and all of a sudden everybody below him in the chain of command becomes zombies and suddenly forget the oaths they swore.
So I have a question for those who might be interested in answering.
How do some just ‘follow’ orders? Is it taught or is ingrained in personality ?
For example...can a general disagree ‘internally’ but just follow orders?
It’s something that has always impressed me. What would stop General Patton from disagreeing with orders while he commanded the 7th Army?
It's somewhat like working a normal job in a business.
difference being that in a normal job, if you don't follow orders, you might just get fired.
In the military, if you don't follow orders, you might go to jail, or in times of war, possibly hung.
In the military, you can questions some orders sometimes, if you have info that you feel the superior giving those orders may need to know or if you need clarification, but as in the civilian world, you can only push it so far.
Not sure if you're a veteran or not, but no it's not like a normal job. Sure, you work as directed, but in the civilian world if you refuse you get fired. In the military world if you refuse you can go to jail. Big difference.
Haha. I didn't see your reply before I put mine up, but I said almost the same thing.
Yeah, sorry, WK I just don't agree with ANY of that.
In my long experience in the military, leadership tends to be very conservative. And they take their oaths VERY seriously. It's like Ralph_Kirk said: it doesn't matter if the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs decides to go rogue. He'd have to convince everybody below him in the chain of command to also betray their oaths. If the CO of my ship told me to do something blatantly Unconstitutional, I would have told him to pound sand.
That is demonstrated in the movie I recommended before, Seven Days in May.
Spoiler
Burt Lancaster plays the Chairman of the JC, or some other senior AF 4 star who decides to hold a military coup and overthrow the president. Kirk Douglas plays an Army Colonel who finds about it and foils the attempt.
It's not like the Chairman of the JC can wave his magic wand and all of a sudden everybody below him in the chain of command becomes zombies and suddenly forget the oaths they swore.
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We’ll have to agree to disagree then. No question, military leadership used to be conservative. When was the last time you worked with the military, either as active duty or civilian? I’m currently working at a base, and have worked non stop in a military environment for around 30 years.
Things are very different now than they were before. I believe Vindman, and all the other leftists in the Pentagon tried to bring down Trump over that Ukraine phone call. So when you guys act like everything is the same as it ever was, when was the last time a LTC tried to take down the Commander in Chief? He was given the power to attempt that by high ranking members of the civilian workforce, both in the DOD and DOS.
Right now, this issue is moot because the DOD is lockstep with the DNC. But just wait and see what happens when there is a Republican President, someone like DeSantis in 2024, or even Trump again, if it were to occur. I think you would have a lot of DOD, both in uniform or civilian, who will be working against that president.
I rather think it's the people who raided the Capitol who want the Constitution torn up. Or at least ignored when they want to ignore it.
Bravo Sierra
If he's "hardline right wing" what he wants from the military will probably not be Constitutional.
Bravo Sierra
Uniformed military leaders are in for the long haul. They expect their careers to span five or six presidents of either or any party. They're not going to be "in the bag" for any particular short-timer in the White House or his party.
When was the last time you’ve worked at the Pentagon? You are either being purposefully disingenuous, or perhaps you just don’t know, but the civilians that run the Pentagon, the rank and file staff members, are mostly Democrats. As far as the conservative military brass, Obama purged a lot of them during his 8 years, and when Trump took over, he was a novice at personnel and didn’t understand what he was doing. He left a lot of those Obama people in key positions because he thought he’d just tell them what to do and that would be that. He never understood that they have ways of stonewalling and undermining, leaking and lying, which is why you need to purge people.
Make no mistake, the Biden administration got rid of a lot of people and now there is harmony and everyone is on the same page. They all think alike.
When was the last time you’ve worked at the Pentagon? You are either being purposefully disingenuous, or perhaps you just don’t know, but the civilians that run the Pentagon, the rank and file staff members, are mostly Democrats.
Bravo Sierra
Quote:
As far as the conservative military brass, Obama purged a lot of them during his 8 years,
More bravo sierra. No "purge" of senior officers happened under Obama.
There were nearly 1000 flag officers when Obama took office. He certainly put no dent in that, and no more had left when he left than were normal attrition.
Quote:
and when Trump took over, he was a novice at personnel and didn’t understand what he was doing. He left a lot of those Obama people in key positions because he thought he’d just tell them what to do and that would be that. He never understood that they have ways of stonewalling and undermining, leaking and lying, which is why you need to purge people.
Oh, wait, are you now claiming that Trump did the purging?
But that's still more bravo sierra. It didn't happen.
Quote:
Make no mistake, the Biden administration got rid of a lot of people and now there is harmony and everyone is on the same page. They all think alike.
No, that's more bravo sierra. Biden hasn't even gotten rid of all of Trump's political appointees in the Pentagon yet.
We’ll have to agree to disagree then. No question, military leadership used to be conservative. When was the last time you worked with the military, either as active duty or civilian? I’m currently working at a base, and have worked non stop in a military environment for around 30 years.
I've worked in military environments since I attended Naval OCS in NOV 1988. I work in a military installation now. The mid-level military officers I work with now (0-5s and 0-6s) are absolutely almost uniformly conservative.
Quote:
Things are very different now than they were before. I believe Vindman, and all the other leftists in the Pentagon tried to bring down Trump over that Ukraine phone call. So when you guys act like everything is the same as it ever was, when was the last time a LTC tried to take down the Commander in Chief? He was given the power to attempt that by high ranking members of the civilian workforce, both in the DOD and DOS.
Vindman was an O-5. He was a gnat. He was a flyspeck. He reported what he heard in a phone call. Sorry. I don't equate that with trying to "take down" the president.
Quote:
Right now, this issue is moot because the DOD is lockstep with the DNC. But just wait and see what happens when there is a Republican President, someone like DeSantis in 2024, or even Trump again, if it were to occur. I think you would have a lot of DOD, both in uniform or civilian, who will be working against that president.
Nonsense. People in and out of uniform, in a bureaucracy, "working against" a president is totally different that the military leadership controverting the Constitution and seizing power. Bureaucracies work against presidential administrations all the time. That's what bureaucracies do. They try to maintain the status quo. If a president tries to come in and shake things up, the bureaucracy will resist that.
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