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I do wonder if any politicians around the world who believe this is a good idea have ever served in the infantry.
Some of them must have the strange idea that infantry tasks can be gender normed.
Female, want to be in the infantry, easy, first can you carry 150LB when you are in the mortar platoon of the support company ?
Unfair, yep it is surprising just how unfair the physical side of being a grunt is.
This bloke sums it up well, women are too small and too delicate on average to be in the infantry.
Believe you are up to it, okay grab a bag and a half of cement, put the full bag on your back, carry the half bag on your front.
Now you have about 140LB of weight on.
Okay now spend a week carting that weight around, then ask the question, can a grunt's job be gender normed ?
I don't really understand some of your statements. What you are getting at, or what your military experience might be. I had the honor of serving in the US Army for 22 years and it included three women commanders in addition to the other women I served with. Not all women are too small and delicate to serve in the Infantry. I didn't read the comments the "Bloke" wrote. But here is a great series:
Since 2002, women have served nearly 170,000 tours of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan and make up about 10 percent of U.S. forces in those two conflicts. All Things Considered is examines the expanding role of women in the military.
I do wonder if any politicians around the world who believe this is a good idea have ever served in the infantry.
Some of them must have the strange idea that infantry tasks can be gender normed.
Gender normed my butt.
Women in combat will cause men to get killed. Millions of years of evolution says males must protect the females.
All combat is difficult and mine was in Vietnam 1968-1969 with the 2nd battalion First Infantry Division operating 10 to 50 miles north of Saigon.
The longest I was ever out was 12 days without a toilet, shower or even a change of clothes beyond a pair of socks every four or five days. We didn't wear underwear because it was to hot. Heat was always near 100 degrees, humidity was always near 100%, we were always covered in sweat and humps of 12 to 20 clicks (kilometers) in a day were common.
You see things you never forget. For me it was the sight of a 20 year old newly married kid trying to get up using the stump of his arm after a fragmentation grenade went off in his hand taking his arm off above the elbow while shredding both of his eyes from his head. Fragmentation grenades leave little holes all over your body and these he had lots of, it is what ended up killing him later that day.
This wasn't combat, it was a training accident for the newly arrived that went horribly wrong. Two weeks before the young man had been on his honeymoon.
I was a combat medic and I was the lucky one to get this "easy duty" this day. I was supposed to just be there in case something went wrong, it did, and I think of that image of a young man blind man trying to get up on the shredded stump of a n arm more often than I like to admit. the stump looked like it had greasy uncooked bacon strips hanging from it. It ain't like the video games.
I was the medic and I was supposed to deal with this?
If it had been a girl I don't know how I would have coped.
Whoever is bringing up this gender normed stuff has never been there and they do not want to be. How stupid.
I don't really understand some of your statements. What you are getting at, or what your military experience might be. I had the honor of serving in the US Army for 22 years and it included three women commanders in addition to the other women I served with. Not all women are too small and delicate to serve in the Infantry. I didn't read the comments the "Bloke" wrote. But here is a great series:
Since 2002, women have served nearly 170,000 tours of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan and make up about 10 percent of U.S. forces in those two conflicts. All Things Considered is examines the expanding role of women in the military.
Twenty year hitch, five as a infantry Sargeant.
No problems with women as convoy guards etc.
The problems come when the average woman is feed the bull that they have the physical ability to deal with the non stop physical grind of being in the infantry, and no, modern infantry do not spend all their time riding around.
So you are saying you served in the infantry and had women bosses who could carry the above weights day after day ?
I do wonder if any politicians around the world who believe this is a good idea have ever served in the infantry.
Some of them must have the strange idea that infantry tasks can be gender normed.
Female, want to be in the infantry, easy, first can you carry 150LB when you are in the mortar platoon of the support company ?
Unfair, yep it is surprising just how unfair the physical side of being a grunt is.
This bloke sums it up well, women are too small and too delicate on average to be in the infantry.
Believe you are up to it, okay grab a bag and a half of cement, put the full bag on your back, carry the half bag on your front.
Now you have about 140LB of weight on.
Okay now spend a week carting that weight around, then ask the question, can a grunt's job be gender normed ?
I hope the military never goes the route of "pc" fire departments who keep lowering the physical standards until women pass.
If I am unconcious in a burning building, I don't care what gender the fire dept personal are. ( I do care that they passed the physical strength and endurance qualifications to be able to rescue me,though.
Twenty year hitch, five as a infantry Sargeant.
No problems with women as convoy guards etc.
The problems come when the average woman is feed the bull that they have the physical ability to deal with the non stop physical grind of being in the infantry, and no, modern infantry do not spend all their time riding around.
So you are saying you served in the infantry and had women bosses who could carry the above weights day after day ?
I did not say "So you are saying you served in the infantry and had women bosses who could carry the above weights day after day". I thought my post was clear.
But you did not really answer my questions. So I will leave it at that...
Rich
Last edited by Poncho_NM; 07-09-2009 at 02:45 PM..
To me it is a matter of attitude. I believe give women that can pass the physical requirements to be and infantry Soldier. Those that pass, why not?
If people have doubts women cannot handle the rigors of battle need to read the book "Women Warrior". It covers women through the ages and from all parts of the world. If American women cannot handle it is because they have been conditioned to that, not because they would not be able to handle it. Also, it is the mentality that men are there to protect women. Look at Russia during WWII though. They have numerous examples of women in the service in all field from infantry, special forces, aviators, driving tanks, etc.
By the way I am still on active duty and enlisted in '78.
Women in combat will cause men to get killed. Millions of years of evolution says males must protect the females.
All combat is difficult and mine was in Vietnam 1968-1969 with the 2nd battalion First Infantry Division operating 10 to 50 miles north of Saigon.
The longest I was ever out was 12 days without a toilet, shower or even a change of clothes beyond a pair of socks every four or five days. We didn't wear underwear because it was to hot. Heat was always near 100 degrees, humidity was always near 100%, we were always covered in sweat and humps of 12 to 20 clicks (kilometers) in a day were common.
You see things you never forget. For me it was the sight of a 20 year old newly married kid trying to get up using the stump of his arm after a fragmentation grenade went off in his hand taking his arm off above the elbow while shredding both of his eyes from his head. Fragmentation grenades leave little holes all over your body and these he had lots of, it is what ended up killing him later that day.
This wasn't combat, it was a training accident for the newly arrived that went horribly wrong. Two weeks before the young man had been on his honeymoon.
I was a combat medic and I was the lucky one to get this "easy duty" this day. I was supposed to just be there in case something went wrong, it did, and I think of that image of a young man blind man trying to get up on the shredded stump of a n arm more often than I like to admit. the stump looked like it had greasy uncooked bacon strips hanging from it. It ain't like the video games.
I was the medic and I was supposed to deal with this?
If it had been a girl I don't know how I would have coped.
Whoever is bringing up this gender normed stuff has never been there and they do not want to be. How stupid.
That was a billion years ago, before the civil rights movement; this is now.
You disrespect all the brave, strong women serving honorably in today's war, risking their young lives to keep your old ass comfortable and safe.
That was a billion years ago, before the civil rights movement; this is now.
You disrespect all the brave, strong women serving honorably in today's war, risking their young lives to keep your old ass comfortable and safe.
Sorry, how silly of me.
Go get killed then and I'll stay home.
Really, not often you get to change someone's mind but you changed mine. To those women want to die then knock yourself out. I mean that.
I don't really understand some of your statements. What you are getting at, or what your military experience might be. I had the honor of serving in the US Army for 22 years and it included three women commanders in addition to the other women I served with. Not all women are too small and delicate to serve in the Infantry. I didn't read the comments the "Bloke" wrote. But here is a great series:
Since 2002, women have served nearly 170,000 tours of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan and make up about 10 percent of U.S. forces in those two conflicts. All Things Considered is examines the expanding role of women in the military.
My service was much shorter then yours. However when I boarded the aircraft to deploy for ODS I was a lean mean 6'4" 190lb's FSO attached to an Infantry co. in the 101st ABN. My ruck weighed over 125lbs. (Thank you PRC-77 w/ extra Batts) and I did'nt even have ammo at that point. I could barely stand up with it on. There were total stud ABN RGR types that had to help each other to their feet because their rucks were so heavy they were like turtles floundering on their backs.
I do not disagree that woman can have the warrior spirit, the discipline and the courage to be fine combat officers. They serve in many capacities with great skill and valor. However the extreme physical demands of an infantry life- particularly light/ABN/AA infantry - would preclude the vast majority if women from such roles. There is only a very small group of female outliers who could even hope to physically keep up in an infantry unit. Changing policy, interjecting sexuality and tinkering with the time tested interpersonal & socail dynamics of combat units to accomodate this small number of female outliers is unwise and - since we are not lacking for infantry soldiers - unneeded.
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