wolves in montana (what's your 2 cents?) (lease, buy, closing)

[Timberwolf232]

Wow.. Sometimes I think these threads dig a little too deep. I've worked ranches, shot a lot of coyotes and varmints, and my take is that if a wolf, bear,coyote, badger, fox, gophers in the fields or whatever it may be is digging holes in the field, hanging around the chicken coop, or setting up around livestock, we have every right to shoot. If a person sees 2 or 3 wolves, most times you might get one and the shot scares the rest of em off.

I've run black bears away from camp by banging pots or just yelling at em.

Until a person actually lives around livestock and wild animals I don't think they have the right to give their opinion on the matter.

On a side note I saw 3 wolves a week or so ago running up a hill close to a job site I was working on on BLM land. Pretty cool to see. (and no I didn't try to shoot em, they were not bugging anything.)

[michael11747]

hello again. this response is similar to what i hear around my area of montana regarding wolves. but my point is that there seems to be no middleground about wolves. as i said before, i am completely for managing them. but to try and slaughter all of them because they are doing what nature trained them to do is not rational to me. most of the links on the saveelk.com are more for managing wolves. did anyone read these articles? you have a guy who is a native montanan outfitter, whose family can be traced back to the first white baby born in the state, say that these animals need to be managed, not eradicated.

all of the studies on the site showed how on average each wolf kills around three elk. but let us not bely the fact that these wolves were being introduced to an ecosystem which was saturated with ungulates. the same studies also go on to show how wolves actually improved riparian habitat, and increased the diversity of the species, by decreasing the numbers of ungulates. this is from saveelk.com, and if this is scare tactics, then maybe we should just throw science out the window.

once again, i am for the managing (hunting) of wolves, but it seems silly to me when people want to eradicate the wolf while chanting the often heard mantra amongst hunters around here "the only good wolf is a dead wolf". man if i had a nickel for every time....

it is agreed that wolves are bad for hunters right? and we agree that we should be allowed to hunt wolves? but i still cannot see a common ground with someone who wants to eradicate them. to me that makes as much sense as wanting to eradicate the grizzly. both are a keystone species, both impact hunters. wolves more so, because they are hard wired killers. when the population of elk is saturated, there will be more deaths. to decrease this we should manage the wolves not make them go extinct.

[jimj]

Originally Posted by blackhillsdreams

Who's to say where or where wolves were or weren't in all of history? And does that really matter in the long run? If we build homes where wolves were in the past, yet reintroduce them in open lands where they may not have been but will survive, why does it matter where they were before?

God Given rights? So you're saying because we theoretically have superior intellect and capabilities, our rights are given by God? Do we have rights bestowed by God or Responsibilities he expects us to live up to? Does God want us to care for all of his beautiful creations or just use them to our own benefit? Rights or Responsibilities? There is a difference I think.

If you read the post I believe I said god given OR inherited rights (to cover the P.C. bases) since I won't inject how I think we got to where we are. I would ask this, exactly where are we on the food chain? I think we're at the top right? It couldn't be that we have superior intellect could it? Even theoretically?

[michael11747]

Originally Posted by Timberwolf232

Until a person actually lives around livestock and wild animals I don't think they have the right to give their opinion on the matter.

that would also be like saying that anyone who wasn't in the military should have no say about what countries we invade, and thereby give the deciding factor to a small group of people who have a vested interest in the matter, and thereby undermining the tenants of our democracy.

[michael11747]

Originally Posted by jimj

If you read the post I believe I said god given OR inherited rights (to cover the P.C. bases) since I won't inject how I think we got to where we are. I would ask this, exactly where are we on the food chain? I think we're at the top right? It couldn't be that we have superior intellect could it? Even theoretically?

the point is there that there is no "food chain" but a "web of life" which we are all a part of. it is no longer "who is the top predator?" but "which species will affect us the most when it becomes extinct." i honestly believe the hunter mentality to be a vestigial part of the subconscious human psyche. carried over from aeons ago, before language. i love hunting, and i propone it. eradication of anything is the completely wrong way to look at a situation.

[grizzfan]

that would also be like saying that anyone who wasn't in the military should have no say about what countries we invade

You know, when I first looked at this thread and read all the up front apolgies, I said to my self, "self, here is a bleeding heart liberal, commie, pinko swine trying to pump up his low self esteem by taking on the wolf issue". And what do you know, I was right! The quote above was the proof.

Get real pilgrim. You 'manage' these god-forsaken creatures by killing them before they get my sheep and cattle or those of my neighbor. Time to head back for Vermont my friend. And don't try to tell me you were born and raised here.

[Stephan_K]

Originally Posted by michael11747

eradication

How many posts can you use this word in ?!

You seem to be hell bent that everyone wants to eradicate the wolves. You seem to be arguing with someone... who is it ? Doesn't seem to be anyone here ! And also doesn't seem to be with any info you have found or that anyone else has posted.

What is your real objective here ???

[Blondie621]

Originally Posted by michael11747

ok i apologize beforehand about the comments this will receive because i know how touchy of a subject it is here in montana. but my question to you is what you think of the status of wolves in montana? i will go ahead and state my opinion, and hope you all remember this is just an opinion.

so i originally moved to montana to enjoy the wild lands it has, and that included the animals as well as the scenery. what i found was a lot of native montanans who hate the iconic image of the west. not only the wolves, but the bison as well. i was completely puzzled as to why people here, for the most part, are against having an animal roam through their lands, that was there even before humans set foot in north america.

i would watch and hear about animals like wolves and bison being literally butchered and tortured before they were killed. one recent incident, which i might remind you all of, was at the sun ranch, where a worker repeatedly ran over a wolf in his ATV before shooting it to death. this is one of many stories i have heard in my years here. these were people who i did work for, and they confided in me with these stories like i was on their side.

now let me say this. this is about the only issue with which i disagree with the majority. i cannot believe that people can rationalize a wolf's behavior as something malicious, like they are out to get the rancher and make him go bankrupt. this is what i hear from people. i do not understand this train of thought from people who do not even own ranches, and just heard a story from someone who heard it elsewhere. wolves are pack hunters, which hunt to survive. after the original settlers eradicated them from these lands, they were seen fit to be put back because they were the original natives of these lands. this is the cousin of man's best friend. yet when domesticated animals, which were introduced to (and destroy) the environment, take precedent, then i believe that to be wrong. these animals are icons of the american west, and if you think ranching is going to keep the million people we have living here working, then you are wrong. ranching will provide for the lucky few families who own the land, not the hunter who works a day job building homes in big sky. i say let the bison and wolves roam free. conserve more land, bring in more tourist dollars. make the ranchers do their ranching more responsibly, and if that means letting a sheep or cow become an insurance claim once in awhile then that is fine.

Good thing I do not live there! I would start something huge to protect the wolves....man is on their territory....let them all move away if they hate wolves..they were their before man! Those people should be shot for doing that!

[Blondie621]

Protect your sheep or why have them? Those wolves have to eat too! Times are rough for them also! Man is the most dangerous beast to walk this earth and always will be! You are on their land!

[Gman2007]

Originally Posted by Blondie621

Protect your sheep or why have them? Those wolves have to eat too! Times are rough for them also! Man is the most dangerous beast to walk this earth and always will be! You are on their land!

This is pointless... I guess we should all move to the moon then?? You bet we're the most dangerous.... it puts us right at the top of the food chain!