Is Cleveland Similar to Cincinnati (Columbus, Hamilton: how much, hotel, neighborhoods)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I think the real answer is that Cleveland and Cincinnati are extremely similar in some categories, and on others they are completely different. Socially, Cincinnati is much more conservative. Cleveland is very...I wouldn't say liberal...I would say democrat. They are conservatively tied down to "D" for some reason. One reason they actually aren't liberal. Cincinnati, however, is a little more liberal although very conservative economically. But when it just comes to infrastructure and size, yes, Cleveland and Cincinnati are similar. They border large bodies of water, they have similar sized downtowns, and they are about the same populations. The biggest difference however, is that Cleveland is very very slowly turning around and Cincinnati is very quickly turning around. You can find a few stores in downtown Cleveland, but nothing extremely upscale like Cincinnati's Macy's, Saks Fifth Avenue, Tiffany and Company, or White House Black Market, etc. I would say Cincinnati has an excellent downtown that is full and nearly turned completely around, however, Cleveland still has 10-15 years before it can be at the level. Once Cleveland begins to take advantage of the lake the way Cincinnati has of the Ohio River, it will become a destination place again.
Cleveland is not slowly turning the corner. $2 billion dollars worth of investment downtown (not including the billions going on in other parts of the city) is pretty damn progressive. Dayton is a perfect example of a city not even turning the corner, but declining rapidly.
You don't know Cleveland, and it continues to get better reading you extremely misinformed posts on the city. The bad thing is, you don't even do your research, so you make yourself look even worse.
Cleveland is not slowly turning the corner. $2 billion dollars worth of investment downtown (not including the billions going on in other parts of the city) is pretty damn progressive.
Cleveland is a mixed bag. The Slavic Village area if failing. But there is a lot of development going into the University Circle area. The downtown investment is pretty amazing, actually, in terms of housing new and adaptive re-use.
Absolutely. Cleveland is like a bigger Milwaukee, and Cincinnati is like a more cosmopolitan St. Louis.
Cleveland is bigger than Milwaukee, but I don't really see in what manner Cincinnati is more "cosmopolitan" than St. Louis. I love Cincy, but if any city was more cosmopolitan it would be St. Louis. St. Louis is larger, slightly more diverse, better universities, further along in it's neighborhood redevelopment and has nearly 50 miles of light rail.
Cleveland is bigger than Milwaukee, but I don't really see in what manner Cincinnati is more "cosmopolitan" than St. Louis. I love Cincy, but if any city was more cosmopolitan it would be St. Louis. St. Louis is larger, slightly more diverse, better universities, further along in it's neighborhood redevelopment and has nearly 50 miles of light rail.
STL isn't very CBD-centric, which I take into account. However, downtown STL is very dead, day and night, weekend and weekday. The office market feels smaller than Cincinnati's, the area is less dense and the surrounding residential areas aren't nearly as densely built as Cincinnati's. STL isn't any more diverse than Cincinnati. Wash U in STL is a great school, but that's not to say that Cinti doesn't have a larger offering of schools. University of Cincinnati is larger than anything in STL by far, and is public, maintaining a presence of youth smack dab in the middle of the city. Wash U in STL and Saint Louis U are both private, which is fine, but I believe public schools are undoubtedly larger economic catalysts. Miami University is one of the finest public schools in the country. Xavier is a great private school. Cinti has U of Dayton (private), Wright State, and NKU in its backyards. The rail transit in STL is anything but rapid. Riding it is painfully slow, but I don't knock too hard on it b/c it does service the city somewhat. The central city developments are small and the neighborhoods surrounding them are in bad shape. Soulard is decent but has its rough patches and blight as well. There is no traffic in STL and an eerie sense of quiet in the city. Cincinnati is more cosmopolitan in a number of ways.
Cleveland is bigger than Milwaukee, but I don't really see in what manner Cincinnati is more "cosmopolitan" than St. Louis. I love Cincy, but if any city was more cosmopolitan it would be St. Louis. St. Louis is larger, slightly more diverse, better universities, further along in it's neighborhood redevelopment and has nearly 50 miles of light rail.
Neighborhood development easily goes to Cincinnati, as well as riverfront and downtown development. Cincy winds hands down.
Light rail obviously goes to St. Louis. Better universities is up in the air, and Cincinnati is more white collar than St. Louis, so I can see why people see it as more cosmopolitan.
STL isn't very CBD-centric, which I take into account. However, downtown STL is very dead, day and night, weekend and weekday. The office market feels smaller than Cincinnati's, the area is less dense and the surrounding residential areas aren't nearly as densely built as Cincinnati's. STL isn't any more diverse than Cincinnati. Wash U in STL is a great school, but that's not to say that Cinti doesn't have a larger offering of schools. University of Cincinnati is larger than anything in STL by far, and is public, maintaining a presence of youth smack dab in the middle of the city. Wash U in STL and Saint Louis U are both private, which is fine, but I believe public schools are undoubtedly larger economic catalysts. Miami University is one of the finest public schools in the country. Xavier is a great private school. Cinti has U of Dayton (private), Wright State, and NKU in its backyards. The rail transit in STL is anything but rapid. Riding it is painfully slow, but I don't knock too hard on it b/c it does service the city somewhat. The central city developments are small and the neighborhoods surrounding them are in bad shape. Soulard is decent but has its rough patches and blight as well. There is no traffic in STL and an eerie sense of quiet in the city. Cincinnati is more cosmopolitan in a number of ways.
1. Downtown St. Louis has come a long way in the last 10 years and is a lot more vibrant than it used to be. Come to Washington Avenue on a Friday or Saturday night and tell me its dead. St. Louis actually has a much larger urban core than Cincinnati considering that when both cities peaked in 1950 it had atleast 300,000 more people. This is what gives St. Louis a more hollowed out feel. It has bigger shoes to fill and despite loosing much more population it is still a denser city.
2. St. Louis is more diverse in pretty much every category. Not by much, but Metro Cincinnati is noticebaly more white than St. Louis. Metro St. Louis also has a much larger Black population. St. Louis also has the largest Bosnian populations in America (over 50,000).
3. St. Louis has Washington University, St. Louis University, and Harris Stowe State University (an HBCU) all with in the city limits. Those young people are the reason that the Delmar Loop is considered one of the top 10 streets in America. Not to mention we have Webster University, Lindenwood University, and University of Missouri-St. Louis in the suburbs.
4. The Metrolink is "slow" because its a light rail system not rapid transit heavy rail like in New York or Chicago. Regardless it is one of the most successful light rail systems in the country, because it is grade seperated. We have had Metrolink for nearly 20 years. Seems like you guys would have had light rail already if Cincinnati was so much more comspolitan.
5. Don't know what part of Soulard you were in but I can guarantee you that Soulard has one of the lowest vacancy rates in St. Louis. Havent seen a boarded up house in Soulard in a long long long time. Soulard is actually a lot more stable than Over the Rhine.
6. Neighborhood development is obviously further along in St. Louis. St. Louis actually weathered this last decade a little better than Cincy according to the 2010 census. Between Downtown, Midtown, The Central West End, Old North St. Louis, Soulard, Lafayette Square etc. The future of St. Louis is looking brighter everday.
7. I'm not trying to discredit Cincinnati in any manner. I was just never heard of Cincinatti being more progressive or cosmopolitan than St. Louis in any category. If anything I constantly hear that Cincinatti is the most conservative/stubborn major city in the Midwest. I dont know I could be wrong.
1. Downtown St. Louis has come a long way in the last 10 years and is a lot more vibrant than it used to be. Come to Washington Avenue on a Friday or Saturday night and tell me its dead. St. Louis actually has a much larger urban core than Cincinnati considering that when both cities peaked in 1950 it had atleast 300,000 more people. This is what gives St. Louis a more hollowed out feel. It has bigger shoes to fill and despite loosing much more population it is still a denser city.
2. St. Louis is more diverse in pretty much every category. Not by much, but Metro Cincinnati is noticebaly more white than St. Louis. Metro St. Louis also has a much larger Black population. St. Louis also has the largest Bosnian populations in America (over 50,000).
3. St. Louis has Washington University, St. Louis University, and Harris Stowe State University (an HBCU) all with in the city limits. Those young people are the reason that the Delmar Loop is considered one of the top 10 streets in America. Not to mention we have Webster University, Lindenwood University, and University of Missouri-St. Louis in the suburbs.
4. The Metrolink is "slow" because its a light rail system not rapid transit heavy rail like in New York or Chicago. Regardless it is one of the most successful light rail systems in the country, because it is grade seperated. We have had Metrolink for nearly 20 years. Seems like you guys would have had light rail already if Cincinnati was so much more comspolitan.
5. Don't know what part of Soulard you were in but I can guarantee you that Soulard has one of the lowest vacancy rates in St. Louis. Havent seen a boarded up house in Soulard in a long long long time. Soulard is actually a lot more stable than Over the Rhine.
6. Neighborhood development is obviously further along in St. Louis. St. Louis actually weathered this last decade a little better than Cincy according to the 2010 census. Between Downtown, Midtown, The Central West End, Old North St. Louis, Soulard, Lafayette Square etc. The future of St. Louis is looking brighter everday.
7. I'm not trying to discredit Cincinnati in any manner. I was just never heard of Cincinatti being more progressive or cosmopolitan than St. Louis in any category. If anything I constantly hear that Cincinatti is the most conservative/stubborn major city in the Midwest. I dont know I could be wrong.
You clearly haven't been to Cincinnati and it shows. I am in St. Louis quite often for work, and downtown St. Louis is not near as active as downtown Cincinnati. Downtown Cincinnati has much more development going on than St. Louis. St. Louis is actually looking at the $1 billion dollar Banks Project in Cincinnati and trying to learn from it for their riverfront.
You discredit Cincinnati's universities it seems. University of Cincinnati and Xavier, do they ring a bell? Yes, Miami University and NKU are not in the city limits, but the other two are.
How in the world did St. Louis weather this recession better? Are you talking about population numbers? That doesn't really even begin to scratch the surface for Cincinnati. Let's not forget St. Louis declined and lost much more people since its peak than Cincinnati did. If I am not mistaken, St. Louis is even closer in population now to Cincinnati than it has been in decades. Only like a 10,000 person differance now. Percentage wise, Cincy lost more, but raw numbers, St. Louis really got hurt in that category.
Neighborhood developement is light years ahead in Cincinnati. St. Louis doesn't have anything happening like Over The Rhine right now. It is probaly one of if not the fastest neighborhoods of gentrification in the country. The Northside in St. Louis looks like many sections of Detroit.
Cincinnati has a lower unemployment rate than St. Louis, is home to more headquarters, and has much more development going on. St. Louis is doing great things, but it seems like you are just speaking of Cincinnati based off your opinion of the city or things you have read about.
Yes, the Cincinnati area is conservative, but the city isn't. Another thing so many outsiders have no clue about. It shows in the city's neighborhoods too.
The truth is, Cincinnati has out paced St. Louis this last decade as far as development and turning the city itself around. I am not just talking about the developments and such, but the downtowns, city neighborhoods (not just certain ones here and there, but all across the city), jobs, etc. I am from the Philly area, and just recently moved to Cincinnati, and have been to St. Louis more times than I can count. Cincinnati may seem conservative, but they haven't been very conservative on getting things done.
Like I said, I really like St. Louis, it just seems like Cincy has more to offer. And I am not just talking about the topography aspect. Every city can lay fame to some type of progress in the last decade, but Cincinnati really shines. With the Banks, riverfront park, Washington Park, OTR, rehabs and restorations going on, etc, Cincinnati only looks to go up even more.
You clearly haven't been to Cincinnati and it shows. I am in St. Louis quite often for work, and downtown St. Louis is not near as active as downtown Cincinnati. Downtown Cincinnati has much more development going on than St. Louis. St. Louis is actually looking at the $1 billion dollar Banks Project in Cincinnati and trying to learn from it for their riverfront.
You discredit Cincinnati's universities it seems. University of Cincinnati and Xavier, do they ring a bell? Yes, Miami University and NKU are not in the city limits, but the other two are.
How in the world did St. Louis weather this recession better? Are you talking about population numbers? That doesn't really even begin to scratch the surface for Cincinnati. Let's not forget St. Louis declined and lost much more people since its peak than Cincinnati did. If I am not mistaken, St. Louis is even closer in population now to Cincinnati than it has been in decades. Only like a 10,000 person differance now. Percentage wise, Cincy lost more, but raw numbers, St. Louis really got hurt in that category.
Neighborhood developement is light years ahead in Cincinnati. St. Louis doesn't have anything happening like Over The Rhine right now. It is probaly one of if not the fastest neighborhoods of gentrification in the country. The Northside in St. Louis looks like many sections of Detroit.
Cincinnati has a lower unemployment rate than St. Louis, is home to more headquarters, and has much more development going on. St. Louis is doing great things, but it seems like you are just speaking of Cincinnati based off your opinion of the city or things you have read about.
Yes, the Cincinnati area is conservative, but the city isn't. Another thing so many outsiders have no clue about. It shows in the city's neighborhoods too.
The truth is, Cincinnati has out paced St. Louis this last decade as far as development and turning the city itself around. I am not just talking about the developments and such, but the downtowns, city neighborhoods (not just certain ones here and there, but all across the city), jobs, etc. I am from the Philly area, and just recently moved to Cincinnati, and have been to St. Louis more times than I can count. Cincinnati may seem conservative, but they haven't been very conservative on getting things done.
Like I said, I really like St. Louis, it just seems like Cincy has more to offer. And I am not just talking about the topography aspect. Every city can lay fame to some type of progress in the last decade, but Cincinnati really shines. With the Banks, riverfront park, Washington Park, OTR, rehabs and restorations going on, etc, Cincinnati only looks to go up even more.
1. Cincinnati has loss more population than St. Louis this decade by percentage and raw numbers. A smaller city losing more people.
Cincinnati - 296,943 (2010) 331,285 (2000) - 10.4% loss or 34,342
St. Louis - 319,294 (2010) 348,189 (2000) - 8.3% loss or 28,895
2. Cincinnati is part of the larger Hamilton County giving it a competitive advantage over St. Louis which is an independent city with no county backing. Let's remember that Cincinnati has nothing like Clayton, MO (the region's 2nd downtown and seat of St. Louis County). St. Louis has to rely on itself to get things done.
3. Saying that Downtown St. Louis has not had any major projects going on is simply a lie. Downtown St. Louis has been going through one of the most impressive revitalizations in the country. Over $5 Billion in revitalization in the past decade. Mostly on the Washington Avenue loft disrict.
Let's not also forget that downtown has City Garden and The City Museum (both have been nationally recognized).
Also the Arch just had a international competion and will be undergoing a renovation that will cost hundreds of millions.
4. Why do you think that St. Louis doesnt have any rehabilitation going on even in North St. Louis?
Ever heard of the Old North St. Louis Restoration Group?
There 14th St. Revitalization was nothing short of amazing. Old North St. Louis Blog » 14th Street Mall
Not to mention numerous other places in South St. Louis and the Central Corridor.
I'll admit that I've spent limited time in Cincinnati, but I was never under the impression that you guys were doing so much more than St. Louis. Again I could be wrong, but everything you have mentioned about Cincinnati is presently going on in St. Louis if not on a larger scale. As we speak there are numerous major projects going on in the city of St. Louis (especially Downtown) that have not been stalled by the economy.
I'm still confused as to why you believe Cincinnati is a cosmopolitan version of St. Louis?
From an outside perspective and someone who has seen the cities and seen them well within the past months, I will take Cincinnati's side by far. Cincinnati's plan may not cost as much...but perhaps that is St. Louis' problem to begin with? Your'e spending $5 Billion on something that doesn't even look that great. Cincinnati is spending 1/5 of that and the results already pass St. Louis. I'm sorry...but I just think there is something about Cincinnati that is more recognizeable than St. Louis. The arch is cool and all...but that is the only thing people know about St. Louis. People know Macy's and Procter and Gamble and Great American are based in Cincinnati. They are very familiar, nationally, with the city, more than theyare with St. Louis. MTV is doing yet another show this summer taking place in Cincy and there alot of random music videos and movies being filmed there. On top of this, the Banks project is ranked the best, not one of the best, THE best waterfront redevelopment in the country right now. Some of the highest noted architects and urban planners (some of which came from U. of Cincy which is one of the best city planning and architecture schools in the world) are in on this project. Not only this, Cincinnati actually has alot of high end and upscale stores, nightlife, and just got a new tallest skyscraper. I haven't heard of St. Louis building any new 700 foot towers in the past few years. And I am sure there is no Saks Fifth Avenue or Tiffany's in or near the urban core.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
