Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
This will be a little long. I recommend reaching out to departments with areas concerning urban studies, especially at Wright State and University of Dayton. The Ohio State University would be another good resource for the state as a whole.
Example neighborhoods that had been prevalent in Dayton when I was growing up in the eastern suburb of Beavercreek from 1990-2008 and again at University of Dayton from 2011-2013 would include many city proper east side neighborhoods. Twin Towers, Walnut Hills, Belmont, Linden Heights and Eastern Hills were major working class enclaves with heavily white populations. These areas were made of of numerous business corridors on major streets inside the following boundaries. Contrast that with Dayton's west side neighborhoods, many of which were Black, and a major dichotomy existed in the city. Though that isn't to say that some neighborhoods on one side versus the other were void of the other racial makeup.
Neither side was particularly crime heavy until a few major factors (as well as many smaller more nuanced ones) began to affect Dayton proper in the late 60's and through the 70's, 80's and 90's. That is not saying there were not racial tensions in my mind, but each side lived and let live. Of course, as you will see below, that came racial integration point came to a head during these decades.
Those major factors included industry leaving the region, either for overseas, Mexico or sunbelt states. Consolidation of white collar businesses, especially in the 90's and 2000's hurt as well. Mead Corporation was bought and moved out. Reynolds and Reynolds struggled until being bought and turned to private ownership. NCR left. Another factor was mandatory busing requirements in Dayton Public Schools, which led to even more integrated schools, made many white parents flee Dayton proper. The forced busing (usually thought of as having students in one neighborhood be bused across town to another neighborhood so school racial equality could be achieved) resulted in white flight, a phenomenon that led to a boom in suburban populations in places such as West Carrollton, Miamisburg, Centerville, portions of Kettering, Huber Heights, Vandalia, Englewood and Beavercreek among others. Finally, many fled Dayton as drugs, especially crack cocaine, became prevalent and led to an increase in crime. Essentially, if you had the means to leave, you usually did. What hurt black families most was lack of resources available (many probably could afford to move with what they had, but lack of loans from banks due to discriminatory lending to minorities and lightly enforced housing rules to work against discrimination likely prevented this). But what was interesting is many parts of eastern northern Dayton remained white, though poor.
Some of the neighborhoods outlined were still decent places to live. Many Belmont streets were and still are well maintained and house retirees, pensioners and those that outright own their homes. Belmont would not be mistaken for Oakwood (an older streetcar suburb that is considered an old money suburb by history), but it certainly was better than Twin Towers or areas north of the freeway (US-35) and west of Smithville Road, were poverty was much more prevalent. Essentially, the residential streets east of Smithville into Mad River Township (now the city of Riverside) as well as the Belmont neighborhoods were working to middle class neighborhoods, many with home owners or renters who had steady well paying union jobs on lines at Delphi or General Motors.
These neighborhoods were all hit very hard with foreclosures as people lost jobs en mass when General Motors and Delphi closed (GM's Moraine Assembly closed in Dec. 2008) or cut back from what was probably tens of thousands of local workers at one point to maybe a few hundred (Delphi closed whole plants and operations by 2009). The result was many people leaving, including plant neighborhoods hit hard in northeastern sections of Kettering and Riverside, and even into more working class neighborhoods in Beavercreek and West Carrollton.
Today, these neighborhoods west of Smithville as well as the Linden Avenue corridor would still be places to be cautious in, though many of the Appalachian residents are being displaced by other immigrant communities. While more recent since I last lived in the Dayton area, my understanding is some of the corridors are becoming more Hispanic-oriented communities. East Dayton and Riverside now have a handful of Latin Groceries. While not the inlfux of immigrants that is seen in Texas, the western US or even the southeast (i.e. Atlanta), there is still a slowly expanding community. What I would be interested in is seeing where the Appalachian residents are going? Some move out into the suburbs with mixed results. Huber Heights and West Carrollton are not the same level of wealth as Centerville or Springboro (another affluent suburb further south between Dayton and Cincinnati). Are they leaving poverty with those moves? Are they staying local but still have at or near poverty rate incomes? Or are they leaving the area all together and where are they going?
One last note because you mentioned Hungarian residents... This population, especially Eastern European, was most prevalent in Cleveland, Akron and Youngstown regions of Northeast Ohio. However, Old North Dayton was a hub for the Hungarian community for a long time, before mostly being resettled with other newly arriving or impoverished Americans. Outside of the Amber Rose restaurant in Old North Dayton, there is not much Hungarian history left here. Today, the neighborhoods is home to a small but vibrant Turkish (and now Syrian as well I believe) community. I agree with Natural's comments about many of the Eastern European immigrants moving upwardly into middle and upper echelons of the American life. That's true whether you are in NYC or Middle America.
And yes, I recommend finding a copy of Hillbilly Elegy. While based in the small industrial city of Middletown, much of its Appalachian residents' plights translate to the portions of East Dayton that I mentioned.
And while Dayton has certainly turned a corner, I also recommend a Frontline and ProPublica PBS-aired (PBS is the US non-profit Public Broadcast Station) documentary on Left Behind America, which focuses on Dayton in episode 18 during the 2018 series/season. Personally, the city has come a long way between 2008 and 2018 (more than the documentary allows, in my opinion), and even more since then in 2019 and into 2020. But some of the points it makes, such as the poverty rate, which becomes even more jarring when you look at development in and near downtown versus outer urban neighborhoods let alone the disparity between Dayton itself and the wealthier suburbs, is pretty relevant even in 2020.
Hope that helps from an anecdotal perspective. I do recommend, as I said, to check with local colleges and universities. And the state's flagship school in The Ohio State University and the state's historical society may be able to provide more research or documentary worthy sources.
Lima, Ohio is similar in that pretty much all of the white Appalachia migrants to the city settled for one reason or another on the south side which unlike Dayton is also where most of the cities black migrants settled as well.
I can see the distinctions you mention in the Toledo area. It seems that a lot of the Appalachian neighborhoods are in the south and southeastern sections of midwestern metro areas - Toledo, Columbus, Indianapolis, and smaller cities in NW Ohio fit that. Many of those neighborhoods remain poor but solid. East Toledo is the Appalachian section of Toledo (with some exceptions). The Eastern European neighborhoods have largely been abandoned by the Poles, Hungarians, Slovaks and others in Toledo; they have been upwardly mobile and have moved to the suburbs. The two Polish neighborhoods in Toledo are now largely African-American.
I noticed this when I went to college in Toledo 20 years ago that it seemed like all the eastern european last names now inhabited the suburbs of Maumee, Perrysburg and ESPECIALLY Sylvania. Woodward HS where I coached football for a season as I understand it was like a little Warsaw and that IIRC LaGrange street in north toledo use to or still does have a sign welcoming people to the "Polish Corridor". A reference I always assumed to the north end's polish immigrant history. I student taught at Bowsher HS in Toledo and noticed a HEAVY population of student's with German last names.
Pretty much every person I met while attending UT who had an eastern european last name grew up in the suburbs of Cleveland or Toledo. So you're absolutely right that there is some upward mobility there among an ethnic group of people.
I noticed this when I went to college in Toledo 20 years ago that it seemed like all the eastern european last names now inhabited the suburbs of Maumee, Perrysburg and ESPECIALLY Sylvania. Woodward HS where I coached football for a season as I understand it was like a little Warsaw and that IIRC LaGrange street in north toledo use to or still does have a sign welcoming people to the "Polish Corridor". A reference I always assumed to the north end's polish immigrant history. I student taught at Bowsher HS in Toledo and noticed a HEAVY population of student's with German last names.
Pretty much every person I met while attending UT who had an eastern european last name grew up in the suburbs of Cleveland or Toledo. So you're absolutely right that there is some upward mobility there among an ethnic group of people.
Do you think there is any sort of reason as to why Eastern European descended Americans appear to be more upwardly mobile than their Appalachian descended counterparts ?
It has not been my personal experience that Ohio cities are over run with a huge amount of "Hillbillies".
I have met people who live outside of my small city, in shabby small towns, and country areas, the names of which I'd prefer not to mention, with some denizens who call themselves "Hillbillies" with a mixture of jocularity and pride.
.
I don't see this is in Cleveland either. I'm also not from here originally, so maybe people in Cleveland that look like white thugs are just that - thugs. It's kind of hard being a hillbilly in Cleveland when there's no rural wooded or country areas. Again, I might not understand everyone's definition of hillbily. I'm sure there are hillbillies in the southern areas of NE Ohio in the rural areas... but that's no different than any other city I've ever lived. Can't speak for the rest of the state. But if you want to see hillbillies and think what you're seeing here is that... we can go on a trip. I travel a lot for work and Cleveland, compared to many southern or western states, has so few "hillbillies"
Cleveland is NOT in Appalachia. Many of the Eastern Europeans did NOT migrate here from Appalachia. Many of the Eastern Europeans came directly to Cleveland.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khan Vozdig
Do you think there is any sort of reason as to why Eastern European descended Americans appear to be more upwardly mobile than their Appalachian descended counterparts ?
Completely different lifestyles? Cleveland used to have the highest number of Hungarians outside of Budapest. They moved to an urban city. Appalachia couldn't be anymore different than Cleveland. It's like asking why a black Senegalese guy born in NYC is different than a Senegalese guy born in Senegal.
Do people really associate neighborhoods in cities with people of Appalachian roots?
No.. never. I honestly never thought I'd see this discussion. 0% any neighborhoods in major Ohio cities are ever referenced as "ghetto Appalachian" neighborhoods.. When A. It's not Appalachia and B. It's an utterly ridiculous conversation.
Do you think there is any sort of reason as to why Eastern European descended Americans appear to be more upwardly mobile than their Appalachian descended counterparts ?
Couple things.
The majority of eastern Europeans immigrated at height of industrialization in USA from 1880-1914 and primarily settled in urban areas. Some were even recruited to work specific industries such as mining, metal working, certain crafts/trades.
They also were only one generation into USA when the forms of mass media began enabling a 'vision' of what working and saving for wealth would lead to and in turn enabled a stronger prompting to aspire for all that the USA of that time and age allowed. Some even came to USA with purpose of making money and returning to their homelands. My Croatian grandfather was of this mindset. Once WW1 broke out and the communists took control many saw no reason to return. There also was a slight difference in mindset of those who immigrated post WW2 from those who did Pre WW1 in that those Post WW2 EE immigrants often started to have different outlook socially from the soviet influence (good bad indifferent)
The Appalachian descended counterparts had been in the USA for a 3 to 6 generations prior and if they hadn't already moved to where the money was to be made as the USA expanded across the continent they tended to be more localized and in certain regions of Appalachia chose to keep a distinct culture with less desire to assimilate - sort of a 'you live your way, I'll live mine' and respect each others desire to do and be so.
Many of the EE immigrants came with a strong desire to assimilate while still honoring their cultural / ethnic heritage. These enclaves generally were based on religious ethnic groups. In North East Ohio there are cultural ethnic centers for pretty much every EE heritage group. But already 3-4 generations past their membership has diminished. They taught their children to follow the jobs so many migrated throughout the USA to where the next wave of better jobs would be once the heavy industries were sold off and gutted by the corporate owners in the 60s,70s and 80s.
Much of Urban Cleveland initially was an agglomeration of ethnic neighborhoods centering on their religious affiliation and the local major industry employers. As the big employers left so did many of the EE community as they assimilated and moved to where the newer jobs were being created.
I think the reason you tend to see more upward mobility in the EE community was that they embraced achievement and strong desire to assimilate much more than the longer term Appalachian community. Many would still be kept out of the WASPish social mobility crowd, so occasionally, they would change their names to be more anglicized. An example was a neighbor who was an upwardly mobile type in my youth who changed/shortened surname to be English sounding.
As for there being a distinct "Appalachian ghetto" in urban centers, I cannot think of any. I gather some of the neighborhoods of those who were once enclaves of working poor who moved to the cities initially for jobs from more rural areas and then the jobs evaporated might be perceived that way.
Last edited by ciceropolo; 04-21-2020 at 05:33 PM..
Reason: clarity
I don't see this is in Cleveland either. I'm also not from here originally, so maybe people in Cleveland that look like white thugs are just that - thugs. It's kind of hard being a hillbilly in Cleveland when there's no rural wooded or country areas. Again, I might not understand everyone's definition of hillbily. I'm sure there are hillbillies in the southern areas of NE Ohio in the rural areas... but that's no different than any other city I've ever lived. Can't speak for the rest of the state. But if you want to see hillbillies and think what you're seeing here is that... we can go on a trip. I travel a lot for work and Cleveland, compared to many southern or western states, has so few "hillbillies"
Cleveland is NOT in Appalachia. Many of the Eastern Europeans did NOT migrate here from Appalachia. Many of the Eastern Europeans came directly to Cleveland.
Completely different lifestyles? Cleveland used to have the highest number of Hungarians outside of Budapest. They moved to an urban city. Appalachia couldn't be anymore different than Cleveland. It's like asking why a black Senegalese guy born in NYC is different than a Senegalese guy born in Senegal.
By use of the term hillbilly , I was attempting to refer to people of hillbilly background ( i.e. descendants of actual hillbillies who migrated to the Rust Belt ) as opposed to people actually living in rural hilly areas , since as you've pointed out Rust Belt cities quite obviously don't fit that definition .
Thanks for your input , though I can't fathom why your post seems to have an upset tone , what with my threads not being of offensive intent at all .
There is little literature about the Appalachian migration from western Pennsylvania, eastern Ohio, western Maryland, and northern West Virginia that moved to the Akron/Cleveland area. I know my grandparent's neighborhood in Akron had many from people from the Uniontown-Waynesburg, PA areas as well from the Steubenville-Weirton-Wheeling-Clarksburg, OH/WV areas. Smaller numbers came from western Maryland too. Many came to look for work when the coal mining and steel plant jobs dried up. My grandparents moved there from southwestern PA, followed by other relatives from northern WV.
What makes this group different is the religion and ancestry make up. Many were Catholics and Methodists as well as from Italian, German, and Polish ancestry. The transition to northern Ohio was probably a little easier for this group, but even my grandparents said they faced discrimination for being "from the hills" and talking differently. But many assimilated into the greater northern Ohio area and had successful lives.
The migration these days is to the South. Some move for white collar jobs in Columbus or Washington, D.C. as well.
Last edited by tallydude02; 04-30-2020 at 10:13 AM..
It’s the same old story. These meth heads act all big and tough like they own the town with their small little drug ring in desolate parts of the state but as soon as the law pokes around they crawl in their shells and play possum. Then their operation gets destroyed, they go into full depression mode, and they have nothing. Oh well, should have made better life choices. It’s a common theme much like the movie “On Deadly Ground” with Seagal.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
