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No one has really touched on what I asked at the start..
What the heck went wrong in Green Bay in from the 70's to the 90's?
They were pretty dang awful, short of a few surprising years (Don Majkowski being the magic man)
And.. I haven't been able to figure out why. i know the Mandarich thing blew up in their faces, but.. They actually recovered from that fairly quickly. It's almost like that was the wake up call.
I'm not a Packer loyalist though I've always kind of liked them. I'll take a crack at it here.
Vince Lombardi turned the Packers around from a decade of failure. from 1948 to 1958, they were a last place team and in 1958 they went 1-10-1. The Packers couldn't get anyone interested so they went to Forest Eveshevski who was the coach of Iowa university. In the ESPN Sports Century 1 hour bio on Lomabardi, he asked the Packer brass, "have you guys ever here of Vince Lombardi?" Olejiniczak asked him--"how do you spell it?" Lombardi at that time was the offensive coordinator of the New York Giants. In that bio when Lombardi flew in to Green Bay, author David Marannis said of Lombardi talking to one of his associates--"Can you imagine living in this God forsaken place?" But he took the job--he said the big condition to it was That he was also going to be GM as well as head coach.
It's not that Lombardi came to a team with no talent as Green Bay always was drafting high for the last decade. And in that one hour bio Max McGee said.in their initial meeting with all of last years club "If you don't want to play winning football you can get up right now and get out of here!"
Nine years later they played in six NFL title games and won five. And won the first two Super Bowls. But he did something else that changed the scope of the league. When he got there he had only one black player and when he left he had 13 black players. He was real touchy about discrimination; he was Italian American and felt he was discriminated against to be a head coach in college football back in the early 1950's because of being Italian/American.
Without a doubt Vince Lombardi left a legacy that truly no one could follow. In 1969 Lombardi named defensive coordinator Phil Bengston as head coach and Lombardi stayed as the GM. From 1968 to 1970 the Packers were old and getting older. Dan Devine was the Packers next coach fro 1970-1974. He had been head coach out of the univ. of Missouri. And after Oklahoma, Nebraska, and Colorado dominated the Big 8 for years going to the NFL was, to me, understandable. He won the NFC Central and followed with two losing seasons. Enter Bart Starr who had two winning seasons out of eight, and was fired in 1983. Forrest Gregg followed, lasted only four seasons.
Lombardi knew how to motivate, how to coach, how to draft, how to put players in a different position, just flat knew how to win. The following coaches just didn't measure up. Trying to match up to Lombardi's record as a head coach and GM? No one could do it. Just my 2 cents.
A better way to get into the personnel, I've done a little digging in the stats in my fact book and here is what I've come up with regarding Packers who were all pro.
And then Mike Holmgren came on the scene and made solid picks starting with Leroy Butler and going into free agency and getting Reggie White. From 1976 to 1988 they had only two winning seasons, one of them in the strike season of 1982. Of the players I listed, only one came from Vince Lombardi's tenure and that would be Gale Gillingham. You could point to coaching to the general manager picking the right players in the draft to scouting. There was definitely not the amount of talent that they had in the 1960's. The 1970's and 1980's were a long stretch of mediocrity but the Packer fans still packed Lambeau Field.
Not sure why ya discounted the Steelers. They haven't had a losing season in 20 years. Meantime, they had more wins than PHL for the last 5 years, last 10 years, and last 15 years. If you're referring to playoff wins - yep, Philly has three, with 4 appearances, steelers 0 with 2 appearances.
But your OP was about ownership and being perennially good. If you're going to disqualify the steelers over the last 5 years, then I guess Philly is out for 5 of the 6 years around the super bowl - zero playoff appearances.
Perennial means in the conversation Every. Single. Year. You cannot do that with a losing record. 4 of the last 11 seasons were losers for PHL.
Look, I'm not bashing PHL - or saying PIT is great - but your OP, again, was about perennially good. Not perennially Tom Brady. "Good."
Around the league - unless something has changed - the PIT ownership continues to be highly respected and indeed envied by some. The stability, integrity, and class with which the ownership operates is not common. Check any sports site, magazine, whatever - for list of best ownership teams - and PIT is in the top five of all that I could find, usually 2 or 3, behind Robert Kraft and the Packers.
I'm not a Packer loyalist though I've always kind of liked them. I'll take a crack at it here.
Vince Lombardi turned the Packers around from a decade of failure. from 1948 to 1958, they were a last place team and in 1958 they went 1-10-1. The Packers couldn't get anyone interested so they went to Forest Eveshevski who was the coach of Iowa university. In the ESPN Sports Century 1 hour bio on Lomabardi, he asked the Packer brass, "have you guys ever here of Vince Lombardi?" Olejiniczak asked him--"how do you spell it?" Lombardi at that time was the offensive coordinator of the New York Giants. In that bio when Lombardi flew in to Green Bay, author David Marannis said of Lombardi talking to one of his associates--"Can you imagine living in this God forsaken place?" But he took the job--he said the big condition to it was That he was also going to be GM as well as head coach.
It's not that Lombardi came to a team with no talent as Green Bay always was drafting high for the last decade. And in that one hour bio Max McGee said.in their initial meeting with all of last years club "If you don't want to play winning football you can get up right now and get out of here!"
Nine years later they played in six NFL title games and won five. And won the first two Super Bowls. But he did something else that changed the scope of the league. When he got there he had only one black player and when he left he had 13 black players. He was real touchy about discrimination; he was Italian American and felt he was discriminated against to be a head coach in college football back in the early 1950's because of being Italian/American.
Without a doubt Vince Lombardi left a legacy that truly no one could follow. In 1969 Lombardi named defensive coordinator Phil Bengston as head coach and Lombardi stayed as the GM. From 1968 to 1970 the Packers were old and getting older. Dan Devine was the Packers next coach fro 1970-1974. He had been head coach out of the univ. of Missouri. And after Oklahoma, Nebraska, and Colorado dominated the Big 8 for years going to the NFL was, to me, understandable. He won the NFC Central and followed with two losing seasons. Enter Bart Starr who had two winning seasons out of eight, and was fired in 1983. Forrest Gregg followed, lasted only four seasons.
Lombardi knew how to motivate, how to coach, how to draft, how to put players in a different position, just flat knew how to win. The following coaches just didn't measure up. Trying to match up to Lombardi's record as a head coach and GM? No one could do it. Just my 2 cents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DOUBLE H
A better way to get into the personnel, I've done a little digging in the stats in my fact book and here is what I've come up with regarding Packers who were all pro.
And then Mike Holmgren came on the scene and made solid picks starting with Leroy Butler and going into free agency and getting Reggie White. From 1976 to 1988 they had only two winning seasons, one of them in the strike season of 1982. Of the players I listed, only one came from Vince Lombardi's tenure and that would be Gale Gillingham. You could point to coaching to the general manager picking the right players in the draft to scouting. There was definitely not the amount of talent that they had in the 1960's. The 1970's and 1980's were a long stretch of mediocrity but the Packer fans still packed Lambeau Field.
Good analysises.. So.. Basically, what you're both saying here is that they had bad coaching, bad GM and bad players. The holy trifecta?
As for Lombardi.. While his legend stems from Green Bay.. It's his time in Washington that really cements his legacy to me. I think he made a bigger impact in his single season as coach of Washington than his years with Green Bay. And it's sad that too many people forget that single 7-5-2 season. It both was and wasn't his greatest. Not the greatest by record, but what he did..
Larry Brown being the biggest single player I think where he made a huge difference. But, on a larger scale was changing the culture of Washington.. Which, I'm sure George Preston Marshall would have said was "Damn Good"
Not sure why ya discounted the Steelers. They haven't had a losing season in 20 years. Meantime, they had more wins than PHL for the last 5 years, last 10 years, and last 15 years. If you're referring to playoff wins - yep, Philly has three, with 4 appearances, steelers 0 with 2 appearances.
But your OP was about ownership and being perennially good. If you're going to disqualify the steelers over the last 5 years, then I guess Philly is out for 5 of the 6 years around the super bowl - zero playoff appearances.
Perennial means in the conversation Every. Single. Year. You cannot do that with a losing record. 4 of the last 11 seasons were losers for PHL.
Look, I'm not bashing PHL - or saying PIT is great - but your OP, again, was about perennially good. Not perennially Tom Brady. "Good."
Around the league - unless something has changed - the PIT ownership continues to be highly respected and indeed envied by some. The stability, integrity, and class with which the ownership operates is not common. Check any sports site, magazine, whatever - for list of best ownership teams - and PIT is in the top five of all that I could find, usually 2 or 3, behind Robert Kraft and the Packers.
Totally true. And I'd take Mike Tomlin any day over Nick Serianni. Nobody would know who he is had Philly not made the SB last year. Everyone knows Mike Tomlin because he's won a SB and he's been coaching for a long time. Since Tomlin took over in 2007, the Eagles have had five different head coaches - Reid, Chip Kelly, Pat Shurmur, Doug Pederson, Serianni.
A couple glitches in one post of mine--John Brockington, not john Brockingham.
Willie Wood had been a Lombardi guy from the early 60's--signed as a free agent.
Location: East Texas, with the Clan of the Cave Bear
3,266 posts, read 5,639,394 times
Reputation: 4763
Quote:
Originally Posted by roodd279
Not sure why ya discounted the Steelers. They haven't had a losing season in 20 years. Meantime, they had more wins than PHL for the last 5 years, last 10 years, and last 15 years. If you're referring to playoff wins - yep, Philly has three, with 4 appearances, steelers 0 with 2 appearances.
But your OP was about ownership and being perennially good. If you're going to disqualify the steelers over the last 5 years, then I guess Philly is out for 5 of the 6 years around the super bowl - zero playoff appearances.
Perennial means in the conversation Every. Single. Year. You cannot do that with a losing record. 4 of the last 11 seasons were losers for PHL.
Look, I'm not bashing PHL - or saying PIT is great - but your OP, again, was about perennially good. Not perennially Tom Brady. "Good."
Around the league - unless something has changed - the PIT ownership continues to be highly respected and indeed envied by some. The stability, integrity, and class with which the ownership operates is not common. Check any sports site, magazine, whatever - for list of best ownership teams - and PIT is in the top five of all that I could find, usually 2 or 3, behind Robert Kraft and the Packers.
Good post.
Yes Pitt is a top organization. Ownership is a strong quality there. They have just been missing the key of a great QB last few years. Got good coaching and strong drafting keeps them in the convo every year. Just since the better Rothesberger they've been unable to challenge at a higher level.
The new NFL has to have great QB play. Might could have won 30 or 40 years ago with competent play but I think those days are over for now.
Oh, to address your premise of leaving Pitt out of the list I really didn't. I put them on the maybe list because they have been good but not great. There needs to be a shake up there IMO. That's on the GM and ownership. Buttes, traditionally strong ownership.
Great Packer post, H! They sure had a bad stretch for 20 years, whether you land on the side of its players, coaches, GM, they were bad. Thanks for the details.
Coaching is so important, not everyone has the "it" factor, complete package. This year with AR gone, we'll find out about LaFleur's ability, too. Fans are mixed on him and still not crazy about things GM Gute has done either.
Yes Pitt is a top organization. Ownership is a strong quality there. They have just been missing the key of a great QB last few years. Got good coaching and strong drafting keeps them in the convo every year. Just since the better Rothesberger they've been unable to challenge at a higher level.
The new NFL has to have great QB play. Might could have won 30 or 40 years ago with competent play but I think those days are over for now.
Oh, to address your premise of leaving Pitt out of the list I really didn't. I put them on the maybe list because they have been good but not great. There needs to be a shake up there IMO. That's on the GM and ownership. Buttes, traditionally strong ownership.
You could put the blame on QB. For at least a few years, Ben had all the talent around him - Le'Veon Bell, Antonio Brown, and a great defense - but failed to win in the playoffs.
No one has really touched on what I asked at the start..
What the heck went wrong in Green Bay in from the 70's to the 90's?
They were pretty dang awful, short of a few surprising years (Don Majkowski being the magic man)
And.. I haven't been able to figure out why. i know the Mandarich thing blew up in their faces, but.. They actually recovered from that fairly quickly. It's almost like that was the wake up call.
I can't tell you with the Pack, but if you had asked me that about the Giants, I might have a few ideas...lol.
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