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I bet some buyers of flipped houses will find out that after 10 years, their vinal plank or laminate flooring will have scratches or discoloration, and it's time for a new flooring. To really do it right, hardwood flooring should be done, but for flippers it's a investment that won't pay off, and buyers either don't know about this and figure it looks nice, or they won't pay even more money for a flip with hardwood flooring.
As far as houses go, people will buy the one that looks better, even though the other one has a new roof. It's why flippers make money and some are good at it. It's like owning a car and changing the oil with the most expensive synthetic oil and filter, It might cost 80$ more per oil change, or 300 more per year. After like 5 years it's 1500 more, but when you try to sell the car, you will never get that money back, even if you tell the dealer or buyer you put the best oil in there, they probably wont believe you, and just look at the blue book for the miles, condition, year, etc.
If two identical houses next door to each other go on the market and are both sold for their current value of $250,000 does it matter if the buyer of one is a flipper and the buyer of the other is a family of four? Does it matter if the flipper invests $100,000 in the house in the next six months and replaces the kitchen and two bathrooms and the HVAC system, paints and spruces up the landscaping? Does it matter if the flipper then sells the house for $500,000 and another family of four moves in?
Does it matter if the first family of four makes the same repairs for the same amount of money but does it over five years? Does it matter if both houses then go on the market in five years at the same price? Please tell us what difference any of this makes.
I've been watching as flippers remodel an old victorian in my town. I am not impressed. It needed some work for sure. A paint job on the old siding, some broken glass replaced, and yes the kitchen was a mess someone started remodeling and left unfinished. The flippers tore off the fancy front porch, replacing with a deck, ripped off the big old windows and all the fancy trim around them, replacing them with tiny cheap vinyl windows. The place is just turning into an ugly plastic box and the cheap junk they used and that exposed deck will need replacing in probably 10 years. Leaving the future owner with a bunch of major repairs all at once. No they did not benefit the area. But if flippers would stop listening to hgtv for advice maybe things would be better.
In one of my lines of work, I am in and out of houses that are being put on the market. It's mixed bag around here in terms of houses that are obviously being flipped.
There are some houses where flippers *are* doing the neighborhood a favor with some of those properties being just short of being improved only by the addition of some gasoline and a well-placed match before they were purchased and made livable once more. There's one up and around the block from my own house that aptly fits this description. It was a pretty nasty rental before and it was obvious that time and money had been put into the house to transform it into a fresh and lovely family home. The only thing worth preserving was the woodwork on the staircase, so it was. Ditto for a house in a neighborhood in which I once lived that had quite literally been an empty brick shell with small trees growing within it. There was very little, if anything left to preserve in that house save the back staircase. Both flips were nicely done and went beyond just "lipstick on a pig" cosmetics in that all of the mechanicals, wiring, plumbing, roofing, and windows had been replaced, with the latter fitting the era of the house.
Other houses are utterly destroyed by flippers. Covering hardwood flooring with "luxury" vinyl plank, removing perfectly good original details that speak to the era of the house, unnecessarily removing walls to create one cavernous space, painting over tile in the bathrooms, putting in cheap cabinetry in the kitchen and vanities in the bathrooms, etc. There's one flipper in the area whose projects are easily identified as he always replaces those large living/dining room picture windows with a side-sliding window instead of a single or double hung window. Those sliders always look like hot garbage on a vintage house.
Sometimes, it's the best of both worlds when any updates are thoughtfully made in consideration of the era of the house. Those I consider to be true restorations rather than flips as the money and time that it takes to properly do this to a house doesn't appeal to most flippers who are after a fast and relatively easy buck. There are a few of these craftsfolk (not flippers) around here; it's always a pleasure to be in one of their properties.
We have some of those flippers in my area as well. For a while, I was going through listings and identifying the same flipping group because they would chose the same (cheap) white cabinets regardless of the home’s style or the kitchen’s size. I saw one that was redone and they did not even leave a space for a dishwasher (presumably there was none previously and they did not want to run the water to it). Another had a huge kitchen space, but they put in only a handful of cabinets and did not even cover all the vents/outlets with covers/grates. I think a third one had a garage with huge weeds/overgrown shrubs in front of it that made it inaccessible. You would think that a priority would be resurfacing the driveway so someone could use a garage for a car.
Someone else asked whether it mattered if the flipper did it in 2 months or a family came in and did it in 5 years. I would say it does. The family is likely going to spend time to do stuff that they know will last, since they are buying it to use themselves. They are probably not going to go with the exact same theme regardless of the style of the home. For example, I have a 100yo home. It needs to have a kitchen redone, but I am not going to do the standard gray/white option. I will do something fun and colorful. I’ve seen it was that way in the past as the prior trim in the kitchen is yellow. I already have a red sink that I plan to keep.
We have some of those flippers in my area as well. For a while, I was going through listings and identifying the same flipping group because they would chose the same (cheap) white cabinets regardless of the home’s style or the kitchen’s size. I saw one that was redone and they did not even leave a space for a dishwasher (presumably there was none previously and they did not want to run the water to it). Another had a huge kitchen space, but they put in only a handful of cabinets and did not even cover all the vents/outlets with covers/grates. I think a third one had a garage with huge weeds/overgrown shrubs in front of it that made it inaccessible. You would think that a priority would be resurfacing the driveway so someone could use a garage for a car.
Someone else asked whether it mattered if the flipper did it in 2 months or a family came in and did it in 5 years. I would say it does. The family is likely going to spend time to do stuff that they know will last, since they are buying it to use themselves. They are probably not going to go with the exact same theme regardless of the style of the home. For example, I have a 100yo home. It needs to have a kitchen redone, but I am not going to do the standard gray/white option. I will do something fun and colorful. I’ve seen it was that way in the past as the prior trim in the kitchen is yellow. I already have a red sink that I plan to keep.
As someone who has been a rental property investor for going on 40 years, I can tell you the only thing worst than homes which have been flipped are homes where the homeowners did their own remodeling or “improvements”. I can’t remember the number of times I’ve said, “what we’re they thinking”. There are few people who maintain their homes properly let alone improve them with their own remodeling skills.
I mean so your lovely cast iron bathtub with no damages whatsoever is pink and you don’t like it. A flipper will tear out that solid tub and replace it with a cheap steel one. A homeowner will just ruin it by trying to paint it. I am the only idiot I’ve met who replaces bathtubs that need to be replaced with cast iron tubs as my plumber always reminds me. And flooring, good grief the flooring jobs I’ve seen. A flipper might put carpeting over the top of the tile, breaking it here and there and making a harder job for the next time it has to be replaced because it was easier than removing the tile first. But it’s the homeowner special tile choice and poor installation that required it to be covered in the first place.
I don't like the practice of flipping for a couple reasons.
Flippers usually ruin older houses by "updating" them. This isn't completely the flippers' fault, though. They're just trying to make the house appealing to the largest group of people; making the house fit the latest trends, even if it's inappropriate for that house. Unfortunately, this reduces the number of old houses, for people like me, who would prefer the originality.
Flipping can also be very wasteful. Even in newer houses, from the 80s and 90s, flippers will rip out the kitchens and bathrooms, because they don't have the right look. So, even if the flipper is careful about donating the removed building materials to a local ReStore, the new kitchens and baths are now on a schedule of replacement, which will generate more waste over time. Instead of maintaining the older, often higher quality materials, the newer, lower quality work will have to be replaced over and over, either because it looks dated more quickly, or because it wears out faster.
First of all the reality of flipping houses is much different than running a reality TV show about flipping houses. The post above (actually two posts above now) this is spot on about how it is the actual homeowners that do the worst botch jobs. An average flipper will naturally pick up skills from doing the same thing over and over.
All the gnashing of teeth over the grey and white color schemes. In the old days you painted the walls white to sell. The cupboards, the vinyl floor the grey, the vanity... these are just to get the place livable. When I look at a house that this has been done to and not catered to a specific person I see it as place holders.
When a flipper buys a house they aren't offered a perfect canvas. Much of what people here describe as being shoddy or too cheap is actually them trying to get it just reasonable. If you don't like what the flipper did you ain't going to like what the people before them were up to.
At least the flipper should have an idea of how to make it habitable and safe. They may skimp on something but have a clue of what to do. The homeowner makes much worse and dangerous mistakes because they simply don't know what to do. A flipper may for example put in the cheapest gas lines but make it work. An amateur will spend too much to buy the best gas line but install it dangerously wrong. They don't know any better.
As far as cheap finishing that last ten years, that's all they are meant to do. It's like a billboard that says "your ad goes here". Nothing prevents you from changing the grey walls to whatever you like because after all you are a genius with unsurpassed taste.
If you have the knowledge to know what is wrong, if anything with a flipped house you have the same opportunity to remodel your own project. If you don't than the flipper is almost 100% of the time is going to do a better job and know which compromises are important and where to put the money to work.
A lot of whining in this thread by people that don't like any changes to old houses because that's their personal preference and hating on people on reality shows. I will give you a hint that's just TV it isn't real. I love it when they introduce the couple on Propety Brothers or Extreme Flips and and it begins with them being unsure if they can take on a house needing extensive renovations. If that's the case why are you looking at houses with the Property Brothers?
They always have some fake deadline for theatrical purposes. The house must absolutely be finished by some arbitrary timeline. Usually it is something inane like their mother is flying in for a cocktail party and it must be immaculate. The reality is it is the time allotted to shoot the show. The product the Property Brothers produce is the show not the house that's just a stage prop.
As far as putting in real hardwood floors etc. it isn't done because it costs money and may limit the appeal. It isn't always evil intentions laying out cheap but modern updates. It averages out. The potential buyer pays for vinyl instead of white oak floors when they wanted maple.
The finishing touches that add the charm and warmth that makes a house a home comes from the occupant. Conversely there are a ton of people out there that have much less talent at decorating than a flipper.
The staging is probably the most misleading thing on TV shows. Paint the walls and new counter. The the rest is all furnishings.
This has been too long.
TLDR:
Flippers simply take homes that people won't touch and get them from the emergency room stage to liveable. Often times for new homeowners with limited skills. Too many people seem to think the flip is the end of the houses evolution. In reality it is just another cycle. Flippers as people noticed are predictable you can actually tell their work. It's the homeowner that usually does stuff that is absolutely crazy. If the average homeowner was as talented as they though of themselves flippers would have nothing to flip.
I just skip over the realtor comments because they are wholly biased and only want houses to turn over and generate transaction fees.
The biggest benefit for realtors is improved comps for the whole neighborhood! It's a realtors job to generate sales/commissions.......can't hate on that.
My first house I owned 5 yrs, sold it for 2.5X what I paid for it. Our biggest enemy was the comps, older neighborhood with very few sales. First realtor was a family friend, argued the comps were 50K less than what we thought it should list for. We declined her advice and hired a younger realtor and she agreed with us, then thought we should use comps from the next neighborhood over (same zip code/same schools/same older homes but bigger neighborhood/more sales). 8 days later it was sold for list price.
Subsequently 3-4 homes sold in the next year in our old neighborhood, no doubt our sale bumped values.
There have ALWAYS been people who bought problem properties...
Until about the year 2000 they were almost all qualified tradespeople or old school RE pro's.
Then with the rise in liar loan buyers... we started getting the quick buck, lipstick on a pig, FLIPPERS.
With rather few exceptions they have ruined just about everything they have touched.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShouldIMoveOrStayPut...?
Flippers do this because it is what sells, and most buyers are not smart/educated/experienced to see past the superficial upgrades and are dazzled by them to the extent they don't see more serious issues. Also, smarter experienced buyers that would prefer more infrastructure and less cosmetic work to be performed can be a pain in the *** throughout the whole buying process due to the very nature they are more knowledgeable and demanding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RamenAddict
We have some of those flippers in my area as well. For a while, I was going through listings and identifying the same flipping group because they would chose the same (cheap) white cabinets regardless of the home’s style or the kitchen’s size. I saw one that was redone and they did not even leave a space for a dishwasher (presumably there was none previously and they did not want to run the water to it). Another had a huge kitchen space, but they put in only a handful of cabinets and did not even cover all the vents/outlets with covers/grates. I think a third one had a garage with huge weeds/overgrown shrubs in front of it that made it inaccessible. You would think that a priority would be resurfacing the driveway so someone could use a garage for a car.
Fun thread! I dread seeing a flipped house in my area. As others have noted, they are full of the "latest and greatest" fads, usually done quickly and cheaply. The worst ones are the ones where the flipper goes in, guts the entire place, realizes they are in over their head then tries to sell it for more than what they paid, because "the hard work is already done!". No, the hard work is putting everything back together!
I love pre-1940s homes and living in the northeast there are a large number to choose from. But so many have been ruined in the past 15+ years with the newest trends, though I think the past 5-7 years have been the worst. Used to be I'd be upset they tossed the old windows, now I've got to worry about missing walls and fake wood too. I am even starting to see this in some previously untouched rural areas.
The was an early 1930s house on my street that was grabbed by flippers. They open concepted the entire first floor of course and when they listed it, many comments were seen to say "too few kitchen cabinets". Which I found hysterical as it originally had a number of cabinets and a full pantry. But that's what happens when you take down the walls! That same house had a gravel driveway with some brush around the garage. Like RamenAddict said, clean that up and put in a nice driveway. They didn't do a thing with the yard at all but ruined the house IMO.
<edit> I do enjoy seeing the drop the price again and again after they relist
Last edited by WouldLoveTo; 01-01-2022 at 11:56 AM..
As someone who has been a rental property investor for going on 40 years, I can tell you the only thing worst than homes which have been flipped are homes where the homeowners did their own remodeling or “improvements”. I can’t remember the number of times I’ve said, “what we’re they thinking”. There are few people who maintain their homes properly let alone improve them with their own remodeling skills.
I mean so your lovely cast iron bathtub with no damages whatsoever is pink and you don’t like it. A flipper will tear out that solid tub and replace it with a cheap steel one. A homeowner will just ruin it by trying to paint it. I am the only idiot I’ve met who replaces bathtubs that need to be replaced with cast iron tubs as my plumber always reminds me. And flooring, good grief the flooring jobs I’ve seen. A flipper might put carpeting over the top of the tile, breaking it here and there and making a harder job for the next time it has to be replaced because it was easier than removing the tile first. But it’s the homeowner special tile choice and poor installation that required it to be covered in the first place.
Well said!
I knew an older Italian guy that fancied himself as a contractor/interior designer as well as being a restaurant owner. He nailed the restaurant business, the contractor/interior designer........ummm not so much.
Our first home was a 78 year old 3 bedroom, 1 bath, side hall colonial on a 40' x 85' lot. We did a lot of work on it over the 20 plus years we lived there. Replaced the kitchen cabinets and counters and sink, replaced the back door, floated a concrete floor in the basement, replaced the concrete driveway and sidewalk, added a deck, replaced porch beams, added a bedroom and a bathroom in the basement, changed the boiler and the whole heating system, upgraded the electric service. We bought that house because it was all we could afford.
When it came time to buy our retirement home we found a 36 year old ranch style house that a flipper had just completely renovated. He expanded the house, added a front porch, added a large third bedroom, a second bathroom and laundry room, put on a larger roof with a brand new attic, all new siding, all new electric, heating and central AC, chain link fencing surrounding the property and an attached garage. All new double pane windows, all new doors, appliances and fixtures, ceramic tiles in the kitchen, entranceway, laundry room and bathrooms, and carpeting for the rest.
The house was basically brand new when we bought it, but was in an established neighborhood, with mature trees and 1/3 acre lots. We sold our old house for 64K more (less commissions and closing costs) than we paid for the new one.
Before we moved in we had the interior painted with colors we chose, added a kitchen backsplash, crown and floor molding throughout, picked up the new carpet in the bedrooms and halls and living/dining area and installed hardwood maple floors, and bought front and back storm doors. During the 15 years we have been here we had the driveway blacktopped, added a Trex deck and railing off the kitchen, a 6' x 8' shed in the back yard, added a kitchen island, installed PVC privacy fencing on both sides of the front and back yards inside the chain link fencing. Recently we replaced the HVAC system and added a natural gas whole house generator.
Considering what we sold the old house for, the cost of the new house and all the improvements we added were roughly a wash. Friends of ours bought a similarly sized new home on a smaller lot in a nearby 55+ gated community and paid over 100K more than we did. They also have paid about 2K a year more in property taxes than we have. So yes. That flipper definitely was a plus for us, allowing us to basically have a new house in an established neighborhood for our retirement home.
Last edited by bobspez; 01-01-2022 at 12:28 PM..
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