Can someone point to a single document , article or hint that the founders saw the U.S.as a Christian nation.
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They worked to ensure that the country wasn't promoting and fixated on one religion (as England was doing). But... they also didn't want to get in the way of the country expressing a Christian standpoint (freedom of religion, after all). And many of those earlier Americans were of the Protestant background, so they wouldn't have had an issue with that getting expressed.
When they said "In God we trust", they weren't picking a specific religion - even Christianity - because many religions include God or a figurative 'God'. Even Jews were okay with that, even though Jews are anti-Christian.
So, a bit of a fine line here, between the intentions for the country, but also the resident desires and convictions on display of the earlier people. There is no conflict, and it's not one extreme or the other, though people will slant matters into extremes to create debate.
Last edited by Thoreau424; 04-30-2024 at 09:58 AM..
The fundamental lesson in my Church and State lawl skool course, taught by a well-respected legal scholar with no axe to grind, is that there is no true separation of church and state in the United States. We do come closer than many other Western and Western-facing nations, many of which have state-sponsored (even if not mandated) religious institutions.
The Establishment and Free Exercise clauses are designed to balance the avoidance of state sponsorship or favoring of particular religions while ensuring individuals are not unduly restricted from their religious and spiritual traditions of choice. Suffice to say, this balancing act can create tensions. Decades of Establishment Clause jurisprudence in particular have been gutted been gutted in favor of a “history and tradition” test that can easily (and perhaps is even designed to) support the whims of a certain strain within the religious majority.
In the most ideal of ideal worlds, we would remove references to “God” and the like from our currency, Pledge of Allegience, etc. But we have so many bigger fish to fry before getting to those de minimis examples.
Yet, in response to OP, Christianity is primary. The founders probably did not consider other religions, only the various divisions of Christianity as religion. The oath of allegiance mentions God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy
Well, they did know other religions existed in the country. If I remember correctly, Franklin had donated to a Jewish synagogue in Philadelphia. There were a small number of Jews and Muslims in the colonies. Muslims were specifically mentioned in the Treaty of Tripoli.
If you mean the "Pledge Of Allegiance," the phrase "under God" was added by an act of Congress in 1954. The original Pledge, written by Francis Bellamy (a Baptist minister) in 1892, did not mention religion.
There's a Pledge of Allegiance and an Oath of Allegiance.
The Pledge of Allegiance you all know of course.
The Oath of Allegiance you might not be familiar with unless you have taken part in a naturalization citizenship ceremony.
It's so old-fashioned and outdated:
Quote:
"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."
Note that 'prince' is singled out when 'sovereignty' is there as well. What about Kings, Queens and Princesses? But the first version was written in 1795 so there's your clue. Just a reflection of the language of the times. This could be whole discussion in itself.
A 'so help me god' version appeared in 1929.
The requirement to bear arms was added in 1950.
The current version is from 1952.
You are not required to say the 'so help me god' part.
Well, they did know other religions existed in the country. If I remember correctly, Franklin had donated to a Jewish synagogue in Philadelphia. There were a small number of Jews and Muslims in the colonies. Muslims were specifically mentioned in the Treaty of Tripoli.
If you mean the "Pledge Of Allegiance," the phrase "under God" was added by an act of Congress in 1954. The original Pledge, written by Francis Bellamy (a Baptist minister) in 1892, did not mention religion.
Regardless of the timeline or who authored it, US seems a Christian nation. I am not making any claim, just what I observe. It is secular in the sense that Christianity does not dictate laws, but certainly it influences them, as the recent developments regarding women's health shows. And that is only one.
There's a Pledge of Allegiance and an Oath of Allegiance.
The Pledge of Allegiance you all know of course.
The Oath of Allegiance you might not be familiar with unless you have taken part in a naturalization citizenship ceremony.
It's so old-fashioned and outdated:Note that 'prince' is singled out when 'sovereignty' is there as well. What about Kings, Queens and Princesses? But the first version was written in 1795 so there's your clue. Just a reflection of the language of the times. This could be whole discussion in itself.
A 'so help me god' version appeared in 1929.
The requirement to bear arms was added in 1950.
The current version is from 1952.
You are not required to say the 'so help me god' part.
The country can "act" like a Christian (or maybe better say Protestant) nation without formally being established as one. In shouldn't be that difficult to separate the two: what is official, and what many people choose to do.
Now, it gets thorny as people can have different views about what constitute Christianity, for example. It's more distorted now than ever. You have one traditional group viewing it as togetherness, love, helping neighbors, not judging, trying to "do the right thing" and follow laws, respect others, etc. And then a completely different and opposite group supporting hate, judgement, division, racism, political power and subjugation, etc.
Really anything used to divide us as a people and nation could be considered a common ill or evil. Sometimes a freedom can be abused to the point of being counterproductive. That car that can be so helpful and useful can become a weapon when used irresponsibly. Maybe we need to emphasize freedom with responsibility and respect.
Last edited by Thoreau424; 04-30-2024 at 11:19 AM..
What about “In God we Trust”? The fact the President swears by the Bible? God Bless America? It is secular in the sense all religions are equal.
Those are not founding documents. But if you insist that we're a christian nation, then I guess all the Hindus need to leave the country. You don't really think that...do you?
Yet, in response to OP, Christianity is primary. The founders probably did not consider other religions, only the various divisions of Christianity as religion.
Quote:
The oath of allegiance mentions God.
Mentioning god is fine since it refers to every religion invented by man.
Still it is funny that they were well aware of Judaism, and Islam neither of which are Christian religions.
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