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I got no problem with people not wanting electricity or other modern conveniences.
However, how many people have actually lived without them ?
( some posters,yes. but the rest have not)
I have lived without electricity and on a farm with no tractors for the first 14 years.
I have lived with out indoor plumbing for 32 years.
I would never want to go back to prior.
I'll consider many of you " dreamers" and " romanticizers" until you actually do put your money where your mouth is and live a few years like that.
I got no problem with people not wanting electricity or other modern conveniences.
However, how many people have actually lived without them ?
( some posters,yes. but the rest have not)
I have lived without electricity and on a farm with no tractors for the first 14 years.
I have lived with out indoor plumbing for 32 years.
I would never want to go back to prior.
I'll consider many of you " dreamers" and " romanticizers" until you actually do put your money where your mouth is and live a few years like that.
I don't think most of we dreamers really want to do without everything. Maybe some do. But I think most of us simply want to do whatever it is we have in mind without being 100% dependent on an electric company, a gas company, a water company, a municipality, a sewer plant, a garbage pickup service, so on. Part of my childhood was spent on a farm. We did have electricity and that's the only real bill my parents had at the time other than just living expenses such as food, gas for the cars, etc. Water was from a well and heat was from a coal stove/furnace. I'll tell you, I wish I were back there right now. I'd give anything to haul that coal to the stove every day--and I'd even do it without bellyaching like I did with my parents at the time!
By the way, it sounds like your younger years were spent a lot like my father's. He didn't have plumbing or electricity until he joined the navy (CV-16 USS Lexington). But he's just the opposite now--he'd rather be back there on the old farm, helping his father hook up the team of horses for a day of work in the fields, than he would being retired in town with all the amenities. I guess everyone is different.
I think you are forgetting one aspect of human phychology though...over time we tend to forget all the bad memories and only remember the good. The reason why back-to-the-landers have grown in number in the 70's and now lately, is that some trying times have come to a large segment of the population recently. As they feel the squeeze they remember the old days and how "great" it was.
Great is a relative term though. There is a reason tractors are everywhere and why even the Amish use them. I guarantee 2 years of working with horses and your dad's opinion of them will change. Working with animals is frustrating...and when you need to get in firewood, or the crops and they are heading south and you need them to go north...well we as humans naturally forget what it was really like back then. Same with hauling water, or cutting 25 cords of firewood...
This is why many of us do not look at back-to-the-landers with much respect. 99% of them will show up, tell us all their plans and within 7 years be gone again. Once the newness wears off, the workload becomes overwhelming and mundane, and your friends in the city could care less what you are doing...its over and you return to a normal life. Go on any backwoods website and you will see one reoccuring theme...everyone talks about their PLANS, and a few people are living their dream, but none have done so for very long.
You seem to not see that there is a middle ground here. You are assuming that I intend to become a Neanderthal. That's not the case. My intent is to either use old technology or new technology (whichever makes the most sense) to minimize cost and dependence, thus minimizing required income to sustain it. That's all. I do not intend on wearing a loincloth and hunting rattlesnakes in the middle of the desert.
My point is this: we are at a point with our technology (and some useful old technology) that we really don't need the electric company, gas company, and all the companies we contribute to for our entire lives. There are tons of folks living off grid. That's a fact--whether it's with new technology or old.
And there is one thing you are not getting: it is NOT doing without. It is doing by another means. You can refrigerate your food, or you can root cellar it, can it, dry it, salt it, and several other options. See, that is not doing without. Doing without is starving to death with no food, money, or home. That's not what I'm talking about. In your eyes, there would probably be a lot of things that you would say I do without. But from my perspective, it's not doing without at all. It's eliminating things from my life I simply don't want or need. And that has nothing to do with tanning hides or scraping elk or whatever. It's just lifestyle choice. To each his own. The thing that bugs me is just the naysayers or sarcasm. It only indicates that you assume your lifestyle choices are the 'right' ones. The thing you have to realize is that each person has his/her own 'right' choice, so there's really no point of the sarcasm to make it look any less viable than any other choice.
Isn't that what we were getting at with this thread? Self-sufficient people. Whether refrigeration is good or bad doesn't matter; at this point it is certainly not conducive to self-sustainability.
And you seem to be ignoring the middle ground that I DO point out. Even in the other thread my whole point was to make do without others as much as possible, to be AS self-sufficient as possible. You've gotten the notion from somewhere that I'll curl up and die without electricity, that I'd refuse to live any longer without my refrigerator or my indoor bathroom.
I've LIVED like that before. I was eleven before we had an indoor bathroom on the farm. I remember all too well dipping from the well, how it was kind of fun in the summer, less so in winter, heating water on the stove for a bath, jumping into the tub and jumping back out again because of a home inefficiently insulated and a woodstove all the way in the other end of the house.
I'm JUST LIKE YOU inasmuch as I don't want to be slave to the electric companies or the oil barons and sheiks; I don't want to be slave to fluctuation in the vegetable market, don't want to pay $1.35 for a middle-sized red bell pepper when I know peppers are one of the easiest things in the world to grow.
The list of things I'd LOVE to be able to do is near endless; but in the end I have to consider expense, time and ability. One guy sent a suggestion about a root cellar which worked fine for his family; unfortunatly he was about 500 miles NORTH of me, and that won't fly down here on the border of the rural South. I have to consider what will and won't work HERE. If I lived in Lappland we'd never have had the conversation about a freezer, I'd have been asking about portable wood stoves.
When I list things which sound absolutely paleolithic in nature for your activities it's hyperbole, because it doesn't seem to matter what I say, you're somehow under the impression I'm not trying to be self-sufficient enough. I ask about ideas for a freezer, you tell me why I don't NEED a freezer. I talk with someone else about how yes, we agree doing without sucks, you bring up grandpa AGAIN and how he was just fine without.
YES, I'm poking some fun at you; it's gotten a bit silly!
And you seem to be ignoring the middle ground that I DO point out. Even in the other thread my whole point was to make do without others as much as possible, to be AS self-sufficient as possible. You've gotten the notion from somewhere that I'll curl up and die without electricity, that I'd refuse to live any longer without my refrigerator or my indoor bathroom.
I've LIVED like that before. I was eleven before we had an indoor bathroom on the farm. I remember all too well dipping from the well, how it was kind of fun in the summer, less so in winter, heating water on the stove for a bath, jumping into the tub and jumping back out again because of a home inefficiently insulated and a woodstove all the way in the other end of the house.
I'm JUST LIKE YOU inasmuch as I don't want to be slave to the electric companies or the oil barons and sheiks; I don't want to be slave to fluctuation in the vegetable market, don't want to pay $1.35 for a middle-sized red bell pepper when I know peppers are one of the easiest things in the world to grow.
The list of things I'd LOVE to be able to do is near endless; but in the end I have to consider expense, time and ability. One guy sent a suggestion about a root cellar which worked fine for his family; unfortunatly he was about 500 miles NORTH of me, and that won't fly down here on the border of the rural South. I have to consider what will and won't work HERE. If I lived in Lappland we'd never have had the conversation about a freezer, I'd have been asking about portable wood stoves.
When I list things which sound absolutely paleolithic in nature for your activities it's hyperbole, because it doesn't seem to matter what I say, you're somehow under the impression I'm not trying to be self-sufficient enough. I ask about ideas for a freezer, you tell me why I don't NEED a freezer. I talk with someone else about how yes, we agree doing without sucks, you bring up grandpa AGAIN and how he was just fine without.
YES, I'm poking some fun at you; it's gotten a bit silly!
I guess the bottom line is that we can both just keep doing the Charleston here, and ultimately nothing will come out of it that is useful for either of us or anyone else, save entertainment value. We may as well be watching Life and Times of Grizzly Adams reruns. We're wasting our time. Of course, I'm not sure that Life and Times of Grizzly Adams reruns would be any less a waste of our time. But still, probably less stressful. What can be more relaxing than Dan Haggerty holding conversations with animals?
Anyway, I have done a few things in the way of self-sufficiency/preparedness--I've been doing as much as I'm capable of doing financially the last little while. I'm comfortable with certain things; clueless about others. I've lived some aspects, not others. I've really been quite pleased with many of the topics in this forum--the guy that made the videos of his off-grid, small cabin was fabulous. Great info. Exactly the sort of thing I'm interested in. The video of the Senator who built the cabin and used primarily the wood stove for cooking, heating, and water heating (which is a topic I'm going to ask about in just a moment on another thread) was wonderful. A couple of years ago, I read a comment on a thread about timber-framed homes. I've been really excited about that off and on since then--in fact, it's become somewhat of a hobby lately. All great, life-enriching stuff.
But, there are also a lot of either, 'You don't want to do that; I've done it and I didn't like it, so therefore you won't either,' or 'Oh no! I'm not discouraging you; it doesn't matter to me one way or another, but just sayin your idea sucks the big one and you'd sooner be cast into hell and ripped apart limb by limb than have the balls to make that stupid idea work' responses. They are not really constructive, because everyone's psychology is different; how can you know what someone else is really willing to do? Or what they really want in life? If it were something black and white like 'you can't jump off that bridge or you will die,' that would be different. Determination and will wouldn't matter. But for these topics, it's not black and white. Some would embrace it and actually thrive, others not. And ultimately, until someone has tried something and failed at it themselves, it's not really time to give up on the dream, now is it? On the other hand, if there is a real reason that something will not work at all--like having an outhouse in a county that doesn't allow it--then great, that's a worthy comment. But to say, 'I've done it and I'd never go back to it,' is just a worthless comment. I already do some things that you wouldn't be willing to do, that I am fine with. And visa-versa, I'm sure. That's not the point of the question. It's like someone asking, 'How do I boil an egg?' and you responding, 'I've eaten eggs and I don't like them.'
I have lots of questions about self-sufficiency which are obviously going to be stupid questions for you and a few others here. I understand you have no interest in doing things the way I would like to T R Y to do them. Whether it works or not for me is for me to find out. I'm mostly looking for technical info, not philosophy. I beg you to not bother with these questions or comments by me that you find lame or fodder for your scorn. They are sincere questions and hopefully I'll get some useful, sincere responses, rather than just something to bring negative emotions out in both parties. So, I ask you to please put me on your ignore list. While our arguing may entertain us for a time or possibly get a giggle out of another reader, it's just not helpful for what I'm trying to accomplish in my life and not helpful for anyone else out there who may have a similar question or similar goals.
Thank you.
... Oh, and one more thing: I am truly sorry for the negative comment about refrigeration. I did not originally intend it to be negative. For me it's positive: I don't need a refrigerator. I like that idea. But, I do understand that you could certainly interpret it as negative since you were asking about refrigeration technology in the first place. It's not really constructive of me to just swoop in and state that I don't need a refrigerator. Who cares if I don't need it? My fault; consider my apology offered.
I guess the bottom line is that we can both just keep doing the Charleston here, and ultimately nothing will come out of it that is useful for either of us or anyone else, save entertainment value. We may as well be watching Life and Times of Grizzly Adams reruns. We're wasting our time. Of course, I'm not sure that Life and Times of Grizzly Adams reruns would be any less a waste of our time. But still, probably less stressful. What can be more relaxing than Dan Haggerty holding conversations with animals?
Anyway, I have done a few things in the way of self-sufficiency/preparedness--I've been doing as much as I'm capable of doing financially the last little while. I'm comfortable with certain things; clueless about others. I've lived some aspects, not others. I've really been quite pleased with many of the topics in this forum--the guy that made the videos of his off-grid, small cabin was fabulous. Great info. Exactly the sort of thing I'm interested in. The video of the Senator who built the cabin and used primarily the wood stove for cooking, heating, and water heating (which is a topic I'm going to ask about in just a moment on another thread) was wonderful. A couple of years ago, I read a comment on a thread about timber-framed homes. I've been really excited about that off and on since then--in fact, it's become somewhat of a hobby lately. All great, life-enriching stuff.
But, there are also a lot of either, 'You don't want to do that; I've done it and I didn't like it, so therefore you won't either,' or 'Oh no! I'm not discouraging you; it doesn't matter to me one way or another, but just sayin your idea sucks the big one and you'd sooner be cast into hell and ripped apart limb by limb than have the balls to make that stupid idea work' responses. They are not really constructive, because everyone's psychology is different; how can you know what someone else is really willing to do? Or what they really want in life? If it were something black and white like 'you can't jump off that bridge or you will die,' that would be different. Determination and will wouldn't matter. But for these topics, it's not black and white. Some would embrace it and actually thrive, others not. And ultimately, until someone has tried something and failed at it themselves, it's not really time to give up on the dream, now is it? On the other hand, if there is a real reason that something will not work at all--like having an outhouse in a county that doesn't allow it--then great, that's a worthy comment. But to say, 'I've done it and I'd never go back to it,' is just a worthless comment. I already do some things that you wouldn't be willing to do, that I am fine with. And visa-versa, I'm sure. That's not the point of the question. It's like someone asking, 'How do I boil an egg?' and you responding, 'I've eaten eggs and I don't like them.'
I have lots of questions about self-sufficiency which are obviously going to be stupid questions for you and a few others here. I understand you have no interest in doing things the way I would like to T R Y to do them. Whether it works or not for me is for me to find out. I'm mostly looking for technical info, not philosophy. I beg you to not bother with these questions or comments by me that you find lame or fodder for your scorn. They are sincere questions and hopefully I'll get some useful, sincere responses, rather than just something to bring negative emotions out in both parties. So, I ask you to please put me on your ignore list. While our arguing may entertain us for a time or possibly get a giggle out of another reader, it's just not helpful for what I'm trying to accomplish in my life and not helpful for anyone else out there who may have a similar question or similar goals.
Thank you.
... Oh, and one more thing: I am truly sorry for the negative comment about refrigeration. I did not originally intend it to be negative. For me it's positive: I don't need a refrigerator. I like that idea. But, I do understand that you could certainly interpret it as negative since you were asking about refrigeration technology in the first place. It's not really constructive of me to just swoop in and state that I don't need a refrigerator. Who cares if I don't need it? My fault; consider my apology offered.
NOW we're on the same page and can start finding stuff! YAY!
For the record, I enjoy many of these "primitive" activities and LIKE the idea of knowing how to do most of them -- even if I wouldn't relish doing them all the time. For example, chopping wood: Not an enjoyable thing in and of itself -- yet for some reason once I get rolling, I can lose myself in it for hours and hours, body on automatic, mind free to wander.
As for Dan Haggerty, I recall LOVING the made-for-tv movie about Grizzly Adams as a kid, then snapping it off the shelf when I saw it made available as an adult then watching and actually being embarrassed that I'd purchased this thing! *shudders*
I'd rather not have to put you on an "ignore" list; there's plenty out there we each know that the other doesn't. Mayhap instead we need to focus more and apply knowledge or speculation to the questions actually asked? I'd say your hypothetical egg scenario was a solid summation of the whole refrigeration thing. Let's just learn from it and move on, eh? There are too few self-sufficiency folks around for two of them to act estranged over trifles and lose out on what might be offered.
having toughness contests on the internet is easy. you can always lie.
you know what?
i've lived for the past 92 years without electricity. i'm typing this on a computer that doesn't require electricity (i invented it).
i heat my cabin by burning the corpses of all my defeated enemies. i usually shoot them with bow and arrow, it's the quietest way to go about it.
for food, i mostly just herd caribou. i have my own herd. i tamed them myself and do all the herding on foot. i also fish with my bow and arrow. it looks cooler than using a pole. i also grow an annual crop of corn and fertilize it with my own poop and the ashes of my defeated enemies.
i use caribou skin for most of my clothing. i wear a helmet with antlers fixed to it so that anybody who comes close enough to see me will fear me for about 5 seconds until one of my arrows pierces their heart.
having toughness contests on the internet is easy. you can always lie.
you know what?
i've lived for the past 92 years without electricity. i'm typing this on a computer that doesn't require electricity (i invented it).
i heat my cabin by burning the corpses of all my defeated enemies. i usually shoot them with bow and arrow, it's the quietest way to go about it.
for food, i mostly just herd caribou. i have my own herd. i tamed them myself and do all the herding on foot. i also fish with my bow and arrow. it looks cooler than using a pole. i also grow an annual crop of corn and fertilize it with my own poop and the ashes of my defeated enemies.
i use caribou skin for most of my clothing. i wear a helmet with antlers fixed to it so that anybody who comes close enough to see me will fear me for about 5 seconds until one of my arrows pierces their heart.
and so on...
Sounds intriguing...
I think you have us all beat. Closest I can come is that I did fish with a bow and arrow as a teen--but just carp during spawning season. Easy pickings. Poor things had something else on their minds. Bad way to go.
I guess it depends on if you mean 100% self-sufficient as an individual, which I would guess very few if any are, or self-sufficient for most things within a family or some sort of group, this could be anything from a family to an extended Amish group. This second one is do-able.
But, for example DW and I are not off-grid, but have wood heat, can in general take care of ourselves for several days no problem without power, she cooks most of our food from scratch or nearly from scratch, I maintain the house and cars, so we are not on the consumer hamster wheel either.
Being totally self-sufficient would mean for example going without any citrus products, which would not kill us but we like them.
I guess it depends on if you mean 100% self-sufficient as an individual, which I would guess very few if any are, or self-sufficient for most things within a family or some sort of group, this could be anything from a family to an extended Amish group. This second one is do-able.
But, for example DW and I are not off-grid, but have wood heat, can in general take care of ourselves for several days no problem without power, she cooks most of our food from scratch or nearly from scratch, I maintain the house and cars, so we are not on the consumer hamster wheel either.
Being totally self-sufficient would mean for example going without any citrus products, which would not kill us but we like them.
That brings up another good point: being self-sufficient in some sort of supply chain interruption would mean local produce only, for the most part. In northern climes that eliminates many of the vegetables and fruits we've grown very used to (and in the past would have been considered exotic). That means lots of potatoes and broccoli up north!
In my area, anything tropical in nature or considered overly 'delicate' or requiring too long a growing season would be out--it would be certain veggies and melons, the typical North American tree fruits, and lots of grains, corn, and potatoes. For me that would work out okay; I'm a grain person for the most part. But as you say, living without some the imported citrus or other fruits/vegetables would be a challenge for some. The climate around here is really variable, though. Within just a few miles, there are totally different growing climates. Citrus would be out pretty much everywhere, though.
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