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The Heritage foundation doesn't provide anything of value.
Regardless, determining the "market rate" of teachers salaries in the current environment is difficult. But what is clear is that the current salaries aren't market based, for example the vast majority of schools have rigid pay scales and pay their English and Science teachers the same, yet in the private labor market these people would get rather different salaries.
I tend to think teachers salaries in California are inflated, not so sure about the nation as a whole. What is true is that all the whining by teachers about their salary, work hours, etc is just not reality based.
Many reasons. First, teaching was my first choice of professions. They talked me into engineeing school because they said I could always go back and put a teaching cert on an engineering degree but I could not put an engineering degree on a teaching cert. It made sense at the time.
I went into teaching for the same reasons I went into engineering. I wanted to make a difference. Unfortunately, I have found that unless you just happen to be one of the best (I'm better than average but not the best), you don't get the chance in either profession. I made the change when I did because of three things. 1) engineering is being outsourced so there are fewer jobs here to compete for so I felt a career change was in order , 2) in engineering you get pigeon holed and I'd already spent 10 years doing the same job and wanted something different (in a good economy, you can change careers because they're willing to train, in a bad one, you need to be the person with THE skill they want so you're doing what you've already done) and 3) they were crying for subject matter experts in the classroom in order to raise the bar in eduction(so I defaulted back to my original choice). Turns out they don't need or even want subject matter experts in the classroom because the bar isn't being raised, it's being lowered.
In short, I thought I'd have more job opportunities , the opportunity to make a difference and be filling a needed position. The answer turned out to be D) None of the above. As an engineer, I wanted to make a difference but all I made was a lot of money. As a teacher, I want to make a difference but all I do is take a lot of grief. What I see as the issue is not what admins and parents see as the issue. They want me to spoon feed kids so they get high grades, I'd rather see them get a C and learn to think! I'm at odds with educational philosophy. It's not about students achieving their best. It's about everyone passing. Neither profession is filling my need to make a difference, so I think I'll go for the $$ and start working with a charity...
To those who asked why I don't make the switch now? 1) because my dd wants to graduate from the district I teach in. Yes I could afford a great private school if I left now but dd doesn't want to go to a private school. She's settled where she is. 2) Because I actually enjoy the teaching part and I'm not ready to leave. Next year is going to be fun. I get to teach and not care if they offer me a contract at the end of the year or not. It'll be like it is for tenured teachers. They get to teach because they can turn their backs on the politics without fear of losing their jobs.
I just have to accept that I am neither THAT engineer who can make a difference or THAT teacher who can make a difference. In light of that, engineering is the better career choice. Doing your job well just for the money is acceptable and I can do that. I've always been upper quartile at what I do, I'm just not the best.
The change back to engineering is necessary because my financial situation has been a calamity of errors since I left engineering and I'm now so far down, I can't get out if I stay in teaching. From the day I started this program, the university told me I'd be in high demand and my starting salary would be in the mid to high 40's and that I could expect a jump to something in the 50's about three years into my career because I have two masters degrees. Instead I found I couldn't buy a job interview (my qualifications are too high for Michigan's taste - general science certs are preferred) and my first job was in the low 30's. When I did get into a district (last year) it was a pay cut year and they froze new hire salaries for two years. Then they froze steps this year so, I MIGHT get my first raise in two years and even if they were to decide today to count my masters in engineering, I can't make that jump until I get to step 3 and I'm still at step zero for, at least two more years. I knew this was risky but they were saying they wanted people like me. I shouldn't have believed them.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 11-08-2011 at 04:02 AM..
and 3) they were crying for subject matter experts in the classroom in order to raise the bar in eduction(so I defaulted back to my original choice). Turns out they don't need or even want subject matter experts in the classroom because the bar isn't being raised, it's being lowered.
At the risk of pulling the discussion off-topic, I would agree that this is true. Moreover, those who are subject matter experts are, in my observation of others in my profession, deeply, deeply offensive and offputting to those who are not. Those teachers who are not subject matter experts, for the most part, automatically feel inferior.
Quote:
They want me to spoon feed kids so they get high grades, I'd rather see them get a C and learn to think! I'm at odds with educational philosophy. It's not about students achieving their best. It's about everyone passing. Neither profession is filling my need to make a difference, so I think I'll go for the $$ and start working with a charity...
Again, I am also finding this mentality sharply on the rise, particularly in the last five years. Many teachers have come to realize that they are vulnerable if they give students grades lower than a B-minus.
[quote]
Many reasons. First, teaching was my first choice of professions. They talked me into engineeing school because they said I could always go back and put a teaching cert on an engineering degree but I could not put an engineering degree on a teaching cert. It made sense at the time.
I went into teaching for the same reasons I went into engineering. I wanted to make a difference. Unfortunately, I have found that unless you just happen to be one of the best (I'm better than average but not the best), you don't get the chance in either profession. I made the change when I did because of three things. 1) engineering is being outsourced so there are fewer jobs here to compete for so I felt a career change was in order , 2) in engineering you get pigeon holed and I'd already spent 10 years doing the same job and wanted something different (in a good economy, you can change careers because they're willing to train, in a bad one, you need to be the person with THE skill they want so you're doing what you've already done) and 3) they were crying for subject matter experts in the classroom in order to raise the bar in eduction(so I defaulted back to my original choice). Turns out they don't need or even want subject matter experts in the classroom because the bar isn't being raised, it's being lowered.
In short, I thought I'd have more job opportunities , the opportunity to make a difference and be filling a needed position. The answer turned out to be D) None of the above. As an engineer, I wanted to make a difference but all I made was a lot of money. As a teacher, I want to make a difference but all I do is take a lot of grief. What I see as the issue is not what admins and parents see as the issue. They want me to spoon feed kids so they get high grades, I'd rather see them get a C and learn to think! I'm at odds with educational philosophy. It's not about students achieving their best. It's about everyone passing. Neither profession is filling my need to make a difference, so I think I'll go for the $$ and start working with a charity...
To those who asked why I don't make the switch now? 1) because my dd wants to graduate from the district I teach in. Yes I could afford a great private school if I left now but dd doesn't want to go to a private school. She's settled where she is. 2) Because I actually enjoy the teaching part and I'm not ready to leave. Next year is going to be fun. I get to teach and not care if they offer me a contract at the end of the year or not. It'll be like it is for tenured teachers. They get to teach because they can turn their backs on the politics without fear of losing their jobs.
I just have to accept that I am neither THAT engineer who can make a difference or THAT teacher who can make a difference. In light of that, engineering is the better career choice. Doing your job well just for the money is acceptable and I can do that. I've always been upper quartile at what I do, I'm just not the best.
The change back to engineering is necessary because my financial situation has been a calamity of errors since I left engineering and I'm now so far down, I can't get out if I stay in teaching. From the day I started this program, the university told me I'd be in high demand and my starting salary would be in the mid to high 40's and that I could expect a jump to something in the 50's about three years into my career because I have two masters degrees. Instead I found I couldn't buy a job interview (my qualifications are too high for Michigan's taste - general science certs are preferred) and my first job was in the low 30's. When I did get into a district (last year) it was a pay cut year and they froze new hire salaries for two years. Then they froze steps this year so, I MIGHT get my first raise in two years and even if they were to decide today to count my masters in engineering, I can't make that jump until I get to step 3 and I'm still at step zero for, at least two more years. I knew this was risky but they were saying they wanted people like me. I shouldn't have believed them.
Who is "they?"
It is unfortunate that you were told one thing, then another happened. However, I'm sure there were several factors. You probably noticed that the economy tanked 3 years ago, and hasn't yet recovered. I'm sure that contributes to your pay freeze. You had trouble getting interviews because you were over qualified, but eventually got chosen for a job because of your degree, and think you should be compensated for it?
To put a positive spin on it, one might say, after many engineering jobs being outsourced, you are lucky to have a job at all, even at a pay cut. Many are still out of work. Many are going without raises. Many are asked to do more with less. It isn't just teaching. It is everywhere.
I don't care about CEO's or private company execs because my tax dollars do not pay their salary.
What about politicians?
For a capitalist economy, US citizens easily forget that low wages make capable people go away (Econ 101), and education should be an important pillar for a developed country that needs those good professionals.
Education is already going downhill, let's keep making it harder for people that (heroically) decide to go to that field. Pressure to get good results in standardized tests and rigid ways of teaching haven't done enough damage yet.
For a capitalist economy, US citizens easily forget that low wages make capable people go away (Econ 101), and education should be an important pillar for a developed country that needs those good professionals.
Lower wages will reduce the aggregate quality of applicants, but its the aggregate costs of the educational system that are the issue and not the salaries per se.
If teachers want higher pay they will need to increase their productivity, but how do you increase teacher productivity when teachers unions insist on low teacher/student ratios? Why do so few public schools make use of computer aided education?
Teachers, due to their low productivity, have become a huge burden on society. Throwing more money at education just postpones the changes that need to occur in education to make it more cost effective.
The self-interest of teachers and their unions are destroying American education, not the lack of funds.
and education should be an important pillar for a developed country that needs those good professionals.
if you accept the premise that you are paying 52% more than the private sector, you could pay 52% less and get the same level of person. you could also expect to get better people for the same pay.
Lower wages will reduce the aggregate quality of applicants, but its the aggregate costs of the educational system that are the issue and not the salaries per se.
If teachers want higher pay they will need to increase their productivity, but how do you increase teacher productivity when teachers unions insist on low teacher/student ratios? Why do so few public schools make use of computer aided education?
Teachers, due to their low productivity, have become a huge burden on society. Throwing more money at education just postpones the changes that need to occur in education to make it more cost effective.
The self-interest of teachers and their unions are destroying American education, not the lack of funds.
The business model does NOT apply to education for a simple reason. "Productivity" is frequently low because of low quality raw materials. In business you can reject raw materials for whatever reason. We do not do that in education (not that I think we should). But teachers do not exist in a vacuum. I have 60 of the best and brightest students in a state known for it high level of education. By any measure I would be considered a "high production" teacher and while a teacher in a special ed classroom with 8 severely disabled students would be considered "low productive". How is that fair?
Even in a value added system, too many variables are outside of the control of the teacher in order to use it to decide which teachers are "cost effective" based on the outcomes of the students.
All I will say to that is that a teacher's job entails MUCH more than just standing in front of a group of kids and talking at them & grading papers. Anyone who says educators are overpaid right now and has never held a fulltime teaching position has no clue what they're talking about.
Teaching includes a lot of aspects that cannot be quantified and entered into a spreadsheet which results in neat & tidy dollar amount - much like music there is a lot of "art" involved in teaching effectively but unfortunately the 100% objective thinkers don't understand this, hence their constant complaining about the teaching profession's pay (law enforcement is similar: "Cops are overpaid too! Just ridin' around in those expensive cruisers and putting handcuffs on someone a couple times a week shouldn't cost us THAT much." ).
And as far as getting the best and the brightest, IMO that does not mean a school needs to pay a teacher in the six figure range to attract such people. In fact, I would be worried that people that are attracted to such a job paying that much are not always going to be a positive addition to a school, because there is a big difference between someone who is highly skilled in XYZ field of study and one who can actually teach others about that field. Ask anyone into sports and they can probably tell you horror stories about an athlete-turned-coach who won all kinds of tournaments and trophies in his competition days but struggled daily just motivating the team to do sprints up the bleachers on a hot summer's day.
I believe the public is lucky that, at least in my experience, most teachers I know aren't really "into" money and entered that field largely because they love what they're doing, and the paycheck is just a bonus (well, it also allows them to buy food, shelter and a few other things they need ).
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Pressure to get good results in standardized tests and rigid ways of teaching haven't done enough damage yet.
).