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Okay, I'll be happy to read about it if you cite a reference.
And--you didn't explain: how do you KNOW that ghosts exist? That is, I'm not looking for you to prove anything. I want to hear your experiences. (If you've already discussed, maybe you could cite a URL from a previous thread.
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What is a 'ghost'? (that must be answered first).
Ive seen about 3 different things in my life, that can be defined as unexplainable/supernatural, one of them did look like the stereotypical depiction of a 'ghost', but I have no idea what it was, I certainly didnt get the impression it was the once living spirit of a human being though.
**This incident happened when I was 17, I was living at my GFs house, (technically her parents house), they let me move in, (and actually share a bedroom with their 16 yr old daughter). our room was upstairs, and from the room, you could look down the hallway, towards the stairwell. I saw a grayish transparent ball floating around in the stairwell, there were no windows, so I know it wasnt a weird effect from light, I know it had mass, because it cast a shadow on the wall/ceiling, and I believe it had some intelligence. It didnt really do anything of interest, I watched it for a little bit and after awhile it vanished and was gone. While seeing this thing I did not have any feelings of dread or happiness, I felt normal.
**There was another time, my GF saw something, from the driveway looking into her upstairs bedroom...she said she saw some tall black thing, that had no face, its head was near the ceiling, (8ft ceilings in the house), and apparently she saw it walk out from a storage area and come towards the window, she saw it for about 5 seconds.
This is only what I have come to believe through reading different books on the subjects - OK, so it may not be correct and most probably is not according to science. Some of this will certainly sound like total woo or fantasy.
The problem with this is...it is such a huge subject and one discipline overflows into another, so without a better understanding of the way things are, it makes it difficult to study. For example, you have to have a concept of different realities all existing in the same place overlaying each other and running with different 'vibrations'. If you do not, then it is almost impossible to explain why what you see when you get upstairs (or out of body) into a different bedroom is different to what we, as 3 physical humans, are experiencing.
Science has determined that everything is energy vibrating at different rates, so what we see is the energy vibrating at the rates our eyes can 'see' (or sense). Other people and maybe other animals, can 'see' into a slightly different frequency band which allows them to see ghosts or entities existing in that frequency band. Sometimes, on the edge of sleep, we get to experience that different reality too. Since we are multidimensional beings, when you go out-of-body you use a different vehicle (body) to travel with in that reality. This other body receives and senses the 'vibrations' according to that reality which allows you to 'see' things there, just as our human body allows us to 'see' things here in this 3D world.
The difference is that the reality there may not have the same colours or items in the same place or the furnishings may be different, etc. Nevertheless, Russel Targ and Hal Puthoff did experiments at the Stanford Research Institute with Ingo Swann in the 60 's and 70's which led them to develop the Remote Viewing protocol which was used by the military for their Fort Mead RV program for nearly 25 years. Targ and Puthoff are credible scientists who have worked on secret projects for the government in the past. If you need scientific proof of this, then I suggest some research into this line of inquiry and both have written papers and books on the subject.
So the problem is, for people who SAY they experience OBEs--we just have to take their word for it. And we know there are a lot of charlatans out there. A lot of people who want to sell books. That's the problem I have a lot of people who claim this. They've created a cottage industry around the subject. This is the way they make their living. There is too much incentive to lie.
So the problem is, for people who SAY they experience OBEs--we just have to take their word for it. And we know there are a lot of charlatans out there. A lot of people who want to sell books. That's the problem I have a lot of people who claim this. They've created a cottage industry around the subject. This is the way they make their living. There is too much incentive to lie.
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This is similar to those that write books on Bigfoot, or any other cryptids... the market for these topics is VERY small, so this puts 'incentive' into another perspective, especially if you happen to be a professional or in academics...stating your beliefs/theories with THESE topics is usually a career killer and you loose all credibility and respect.
So the problem is, for people who SAY they experience OBEs--we just have to take their word for it. And we know there are a lot of charlatans out there. A lot of people who want to sell books. That's the problem I have a lot of people who claim this. They've created a cottage industry around the subject. This is the way they make their living. There is too much incentive to lie.--
So, let me ask you this... Do you disbelieve the motives of people who write books on OTHER TOPICS as well? In which case, you probably do not read much at all, since you appear to question the 'authority' of even experts in their field. (You can have experts in paranormal fields too, you know)
I suspect this ability of yours to disbelieve the motives of authors only extends to subjects which you choose not to believe (maybe non-scientific subjects?) and this questioning of motives is a mechanism you use to justify to yourself your beliefs.
This can be founded in a basic fear of the unknown, because science is generally the study of known things which can be poked and prodded, measured and weighed.
So, let me ask you this... Do you disbelieve the motives of people who write books on OTHER TOPICS as well? In which case, you probably do not read much at all, since you appear to question the 'authority' of even experts in their field. (You can have experts in paranormal fields too, you know)
I suspect this ability of yours to disbelieve the motives of authors only extends to subjects which you choose not to believe (maybe non-scientific subjects?) and this questioning of motives is a mechanism you use to justify to yourself your beliefs.
This can be founded in a basic fear of the unknown, because science is generally the study of known things which can be poked and prodded, measured and weighed.
People writing about paranormal topics needn't worry about truth as there are readers whom they know will believe anything. We see that on this forum where there is a coterie of believers who defend anything paranormal regardless of how silly.
So, let me ask you this... Do you disbelieve the motives of people who write books on OTHER TOPICS as well? In which case, you probably do not read much at all, since you appear to question the 'authority' of even experts in their field. (You can have experts in paranormal fields too, you know)
As I've said before, it's not that I disbelieve--it's that I'm SKEPTICAL. Especially when somebody says, "Take my word for it." When it comes to questioning, I always question, everybody, all the time. Because people LIE. People lie all the time.
I do read. One of my favorite books is Freakanomics. (It's sequel, Superfreakanomics was also good.) One of the underlying principles in Freakanomics was that people respond to (and are motivated by) INCENTIVES. And that causes people to lie. And to cheat. And to obfuscate. So you ask, "Why would that well known OBE guru/"expert" lie?" I'd respond that he's INCENTIVIZED to lie. Because it puts money in his pocket.
On the other hand, I don't think all of the OBE gurus you mentioned are lying. I think that some (or maybe all) do actually believe they can travel outside their body. But that doesn't mean they are actually capable of OBEs. As I said before, the human mind is capable of spectacular self-deception. I think people believe what they WANT to believe,
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I suspect this ability of yours to disbelieve the motives of authors only extends to subjects which you choose not to believe (maybe non-scientific subjects?) and this questioning of motives is a mechanism you use to justify to yourself your beliefs.
And you base this on what?
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This can be founded in a basic fear of the unknown, because science is generally the study of known things which can be poked and prodded, measured and weighed.
The scientific method is based on experimentation and observation. A scientist runs an experiment, observes the results, and publishes a paper. If other scientists are able to REPLICATE those results, the theory in question begins to be accepted. Science is replete with scientists who published results in peer-reviewed journals and other scientists were NOT able to replicate the results. And the theory in question was not accepted.
The vast majority of paranormal claims have NOT been rigorously, scientifically tested. Some have been. And the results have been inconclusive at BEST. Which is why The Amazing Randi never had to pay out a million dollars. When it counted, nobody who had claimed paranormal abilities was able to PROVE it, in a controlled environment.
Who was Randi? I mean why should we listen to him, take his word or make him an authority? So...he offered money to "prove" something psychic was going on. That does NOT make him the judge, jury and executioner of the paranormal.
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I'd respond that he's INCENTIVIZED to lie. Because it puts money in his pocket.
OK, but isn't EVERYONE who writes a book incentivized to lie? So we get back to my original point which is - How do you read and believe ANY book if you believe that ALL of them are incentivized to lie? Of course authors want to make money. Thats what they probably do to earn a living.
So, by your own admission, you read books by some authors and you probably believe what they say. Yet some other authors you illogically believe they are lieing , the only difference being the subject matter of the books and your beliefs. This is what I base my statement on.
I admit, we all want to justify our beliefs however we can, so you would not be alone in this. I do it, everyone does it.
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On the other hand, I don't think all of the OBE gurus you mentioned are lying. I think that some (or maybe all) do actually believe they can travel outside their body. But that doesn't mean they are actually capable of OBEs. As I said before, the human mind is capable of spectacular self-deception. I think people believe what they WANT to believe,
I too I think people believe what they WANT to believe. However, see my point about Remote Viewing below.
Scientists are as bad as everyone else in believing what they WANT. A scientist can draw a conclusion or present data which is skewed or biased or fabricated or just plain in opposition to what has been published previously. You will find many scientists who publish peer reviewed papers who disagree with each other. NASA scientists often say different things that they believe are true and the one I always point to is about the wind on Mars. Is it strong enough to blow sand about and to clean the rovers solar panels or is it too weak to blow 5mm spherules about into piles? The scientific method is a procedure which SHOULD be followed but it does not mean scientists cannot lie.
Remote Viewing is probably the best and most researched branch of the paranormal. Major work was done by Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ at Stanford Research Institute. I think they probably know how to "do" science and follow the scientific method.
Who was Randi? I mean why should we listen to him, take his word or make him an authority? So...he offered money to "prove" something psychic was going on. That does NOT make him the judge, jury and executioner of the paranormal.
The Amazing Randi was a magician and paranormal debunker. He offered a million dollars to anybody who could PROVE, under controlled circumstances (meaning it would be very hard to cheat), they had paranormal abilities. Many people said they'd take the challenge. Fewer actually went through with it. And NONE got the million dollars. After a fashion, Randi was judge and jury. A lot of people claim to have paranormal abilities. Almost none can actually prove it.
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OK, but isn't EVERYONE who writes a book incentivized to lie? So we get back to my original point which is - How do you read and believe ANY book if you believe that ALL of them are incentivized to lie? Of course authors want to make money. Thats what they probably do to earn a living.
So, by your own admission, you read books by some authors and you probably believe what they say. Yet some other authors you illogically believe they are lieing , the only difference being the subject matter of the books and your beliefs. This is what I base my statement on.
Yep. But with the paranormal books, it's basically "Well, you kinda just have to take my word for it." Right? Do I believe everything I read in every single book I read? Of course not. Why? Because people lie. But I've gotten pretty good in my 50+ years in ferreting out lies. And I don't believe all people who claim paranormal abilities are lying. I would imagine a good percentage of them actually believe they have paranormal abilities. That doesn't mean they actually do. As I've said before, I believe the human mind is capable of spectacular self-deception.
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Scientists are as bad as everyone else in believing what they WANT. A scientist can draw a conclusion or present data which is skewed or biased or fabricated or just plain in opposition to what has been published previously. You will find many scientists who publish peer reviewed papers who disagree with each other. NASA scientists often say different things that they believe are true and the one I always point to is about the wind on Mars. Is it strong enough to blow sand about and to clean the rovers solar panels or is it too weak to blow 5mm spherules about into piles? The scientific method is a procedure which SHOULD be followed but it does not mean scientists cannot lie.
Of course. As I've said before, EVERYBODY lies. And scientists lie. But it's a lot harder for them to get away with it. Because if other scientists cannot replicate their results, those results are typically discounted.
I'll bring up the case of Dr. Andrew Wakefield. He published a study in the Lancet, claiming a link between the MMR vaccine and autism. Turns out he had financial interests/conflicts of interest that he didn't disclose. The article was retracted, his "research" was debunked, and he lost his medical license. How did that happen? Other scientists started picking apart his work, and his method, and his results. His "research" didn't hold up to scrutiny.
You can't really do that with books on out of body travel, can you?
Paul, I'll tell you what. If you recommend a book I will read it. Recommend the best book, the most authentic book you've read on the paranormal. I'll read it and tell you what I think. I'll keep as open a mind as I possibly can.
The Amazing Randi was a magician and paranormal debunker. He offered a million dollars to anybody who could PROVE, under controlled circumstances (meaning it would be very hard to cheat), they had paranormal abilities. Many people said they'd take the challenge. Fewer actually went through with it. And NONE got the million dollars. After a fashion, Randi was judge and jury. A lot of people claim to have paranormal abilities. Almost none can actually prove it.
Yep. But with the paranormal books, it's basically "Well, you kinda just have to take my word for it." Right? Do I believe everything I read in every single book I read? Of course not. Why? Because people lie. But I've gotten pretty good in my 50+ years in ferreting out lies. And I don't believe all people who claim paranormal abilities are lying. I would imagine a good percentage of them actually believe they have paranormal abilities. That doesn't mean they actually do. As I've said before, I believe the human mind is capable of spectacular self-deception.
Of course. As I've said before, EVERYBODY lies. And scientists lie. But it's a lot harder for them to get away with it. Because if other scientists cannot replicate their results, those results are typically discounted.
I'll bring up the case of Dr. Andrew Wakefield. He published a study in the Lancet, claiming a link between the MMR vaccine and autism. Turns out he had financial interests/conflicts of interest that he didn't disclose. The article was retracted, his "research" was debunked, and he lost his medical license. How did that happen? Other scientists started picking apart his work, and his method, and his results. His "research" didn't hold up to scrutiny.
You can't really do that with books on out of body travel, can you?
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Also don’t forget, the people that saw the movie frozen and then created a computer scenario where an avalanche took the Dylotof pass people. Yeah, I know I spelled that wrong but the bottom layer of my lemon squares I’m making for the picnic today is beeping. Actually that would be the oven is beeping. Baking is science. Can’t mess with it.
Okay...To me somebody creating a computer simulation to prove something that they think is bad science. It’s no different than creating CGI for a movie.
__________________ Solly says — Be nice!
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Solly says — Be nice!
