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Old 06-19-2007, 03:03 PM
 
2,507 posts, read 8,565,866 times
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I've said before, there is nothing inhernetly wrong with sprawl, but this country does it wrong. It isn't just a back yard we want, we also have to have a place to park 4 cars, a strip mall of retailers, curvilinear streets and generally shoddy architecture. I'm not some urban snob, I lived in the suburbs for a long time. I think it is different (read: easier for you to rave) in Carolina where most all your cities have grown since the advent of sprawl. Great cities like Saint Louis and Detroit (yes, they were gourgeous) have been DEMOLISHED in search for some suburban ideal. I don't think much in Raleigh was ever torn down for sprawl. Even cities that faired relatively well (ex. Mpls) lost half (no exaggeration) of a downtown. Southern cities haven't grown because they sprawl, they grew because for some reason people think the weather in Dixie is nice. The fleeing to the South and West created sprawl, not the other way around. You can still get a big back yard in Philadelphia, Chicago or Minneapolis. Alot of Minneapolis proper (the city I love so much) is actually antiquified sprawl. People got yards, garages and good schools. There was a mixture of single family and apartments (on the same block) Things could be walked to, there was a trolley to downtown. HOWEVER, they didn't need a 3000 sq ft house and a half acre lot. The old sprawl didn't have devastating environmental impact, there was no congestion, there was no ghetto of disillusioned minorities, there was no abandoned downtown, there was MUCH less violence. Sprawl created all of thse things for my city, so hopefully you can see why I could be slightly angered by wanton and unregulated development. Finally, Europe and Japan have existed for centuries without the need for huge backyards. They created parks. Their kids survived. (to tahiti - I can understand how circumstances may be different in New Jersey, but Jersey simply isn't like most places. I'm not intending to throw a large generality over a group of people. I simply looking at things from a different part of the country)
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Old 06-19-2007, 03:16 PM
 
Location: NJ
12,283 posts, read 35,702,762 times
Reputation: 5331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnehahapolitan View Post
Their kids survived. (to tahiti - I can understand how circumstances may be different in New Jersey, but Jersey simply isn't like most places. I'm not intending to throw a large generality over a group of people. I simply looking at things from a different part of the country)

agreed. since i have no intention of leaving here, my answer was personal. i completely understand that NJ is different than a majority of the country. i grew up urban as urban can be - and i won't subject my kids to it, unfortunately.
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Old 06-19-2007, 04:42 PM
 
Location: Raleigh,NC
351 posts, read 1,069,413 times
Reputation: 179
WHY SPRAWL IS GOOD

by Peter Gordon and Harry W. Richardson



Carping at Los Angeles has long been a national pastime. In his recent two-part series, "Becoming Los Angeles" (New York Times, December 29-30, 1996 and cited in The Oregonian, 1-4-97), Timothy Egan combines this with praise for Portland, in making the case for interventionist urban planning to slow down urban growth and change the prevalent patterns of urban settlement. The case is built on several misconceptions.



1) He forgets that the virtue of markets is that they give people what they want. No developer gets rich by building housing and projects that people dislike. No city strengthens its tax base by promoting developments (e.g. most downtown projects) that are unpopular, unprofitable and badly located.



2) Los Angeles is not the sprawl capital of the world. On the contrary, its urbanized area has the highest population density in the U.S (according to the U.S. Census), higher than New York, Chicago, and San Francisco, and double that of Phoenix. The reasons include small lot sizes , a sizeable stock of apartments and high dwelling densities among the large immigrant population.



3) Most people throughout the country are choosing to live away from commercial areas, enjoying the private spaces afforded by single-family homes set back from streets and the mobility and accessiblity offered by the private automobile. This lifestyle is not imposed by malignant U.S. policies, for suburbanization trends are global: in Canada without mortgage interest tax deductions, in Europe with high gasoline taxes, in Seoul with plentiful public transit, and in Mexico City with its huge subway subsidies.



4) Compact development is not a cure for traffic congestion. In the absence of a major shift to transit (highly improbable, given that transit use declined in every "new rail" city in the 1980s), higher densities mean more congestion not less. Los Angeles' commuting speeds compare favorably with Portland's (31.7 mph vs. 26.7 mph in the central city, and 33.6 mph vs. 35.0 mph in the suburbs). Commuting everywhere is increasingly suburb-to-suburb. This means a relatively speedy trip for most commuters; only 10 percent travel more than 44 minutes one way.



5) Rail transit has an impossible fit to modern cities. U.S. rail transit investments have been costly failures that have paradoxically resulted in less transit use as bus funds were cannibalized for rail. Los Angeles, as a typical example, has lost more than a fifth of its transit riders since it started spending billions of dollars on rail. As for the much touted Portland light rail (MAX), every Portland freeway carries four to five times more riders per day, only 0.8 percent of the regional jobs created between 1990 and 1994 were downtown (and MAX is a downtown-oriented system), the cost per one-way trip (including capital costs) is about $20, and transit ridership has not increased because of the substitution of Federally-substituted rail for bus routes. In the new Mecca of urban planning, transit accounts for only 2.8 percent of trips, with a mere 0.3 percent using MAX, and only about one percent of the Tri-Met's service area population is within walking distance of MAX stations.



Anticipating all of this, one of us forecast MAX 1990 ridership (19,700 boardings per day) quite accurately back in 1983. That forecast actually predicted 19,730 MAX boardings per day; Metro's estimate was for 42,500 boardings per day.



6) Improving air quality has been a major rationale for growth management and other anti-sprawl measures, often by quoting Los Angeles. But air quality in Los Angeles has been improving dramatically year by year, even during its rapid growth phase of the 1980s. There were only seven smog alerts in the 1996 smog season compared with 121 in 1977.



Furthermore, more compact development has a minimal impact on air quality because it is likely to result in more frequent but shorter automobile trips (almost two-thirds of automobile pollution is associated with starting and stopping, the cold start and the hot soak problems).



7) Markets continue to do a good job of allocating resources, including farmland. U.S. cropland use peaked in 1930. We continue to feed millions more on less land because of improved farming methods. The demand for agricultural land would fall even further if the 105th Congress continues the good work begun in the 104th in cutting farm subsidies.



8) The telecommunications revolution is allowing jobs to move to where people want to live, unlike in the past when people followed the jobs. An increasing proportion of mobile households choose to live in high amenity-low density settings. Most job growth is now in rural areas. There is little evidence that people prefer to live in more compact environments, such as downtowns, the communities of the New Urbanism, or within fixed urban growth boundaries (where prices are higher). A golden rule for urban planners is: don't play at being King Canute.



Growth gets a bad rap, both when it happens and when it stops. In either case, intelligent discussions must take place if sound policy choices are to be made. Getting the facts right is a good beginning. So much of the so-called New Urbanism and the compact city movement rests on wishful thinking and the arrogance of social engineers who override individual preferences.







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is urban sprawl an American problem? - By Witold Rybczynski - Slate Magazine

Urban Sprawl
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Old 06-19-2007, 05:49 PM
 
Location: yeah
5,717 posts, read 16,355,773 times
Reputation: 2975
San Jose and Los Angeles had less sprawl over the period than San Francisco-Oakland. That's gold.
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:12 PM
 
16,087 posts, read 41,175,792 times
Reputation: 6376
Dallas is rebuilding its central core by putting in an extensive light rail/subway system, turning the Trinity River into a park larger than Central Park, building the largest Arts District in the world in Downtown, redeveloping with density near DART stations, many new high-rise condos, converted downtown office buildings into residential, etc.

The burbs are causing the sprawl problems. But I imagine they will be dying to move to Dallas when all this is complete.
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Texas!
332 posts, read 449,566 times
Reputation: 108
I like the first picture of Dallas on here, at first I couldn't even believe it was Dallas lol.
Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum - Massive Uptown Pano - 07/12/2007

I understand sprawling may turn alot of people away for cities but that dosen't make a city least beautiful or less unimpressive.
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Old 06-21-2007, 04:39 AM
 
Location: Henderson NV
1,135 posts, read 1,209,397 times
Reputation: 82
Wow! A study that is actually impressed by L. A.'s 'by and for the car' design! The end is near..I think Santa Ana is the only city that has the highest density in the country, more so than New York. Illegal Aliens.
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Old 06-23-2007, 01:42 AM
 
Location: Midwest
1,903 posts, read 7,902,847 times
Reputation: 474
The area in Champaign, Illinois right south of downtown is a retail dead land, except for a Dairy Queen and a gas station or two. An old warehouse was converted into a bar. But wait, keep driving, across Windsor Road into Savoy ... plenty of suburban goodness, like the A&W and the movie theater.

The north side of Champaign is bigger sprawl (Target, Wal-Mart, etc the usual freeway artery lining). I don't think it's purely taxes; these businesses are located with city limits. Maybe the taxes for greenfield development are lower?

ScrantonWB seems to have something: people just prefer the new, and to heck with the old.
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