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If your posts are getting deleted, try sticking to what YOU experience, whether it's positive or negative. There are also systemic problems with this (and every) state; discussing these is critical to making a difference. In my experience, all viewpoints are welcome here. Try skipping the name-calling, stereotyping, and OT post-hijacking and your posts will remain. (This post of mine may get cut or deleted because I think discussing TOS may violate TOS, but that's okay -- if those are the rules, then I will abide when corrected.)
Thank you Logs and Dogs -- you said it exactly. Opinions are based on real experiences of real people. I want to hear them all. But they don't make stereotypes true. Stereotypes and name-calling just degrade the conversation. If it makes someone feel better to complain, more vindicated for trials endured (which can be considerable -- I feel for that and will listen all day!), and more committed to leaving, if that's what they want, then go for it. But to paint entire groups based on these experiences? How sad and untrue.
My husband and I are anything but loaded. We are hardworking people who live, work, and play with other hardworking people in Vermont. At my job, I work with volunteers statewide. Among the hundreds of people I encounter regularly, most have decent jobs and some scrape by, but none are "freeloaders" or "loaded." The few wealthy people I've met, for the most part, have been generous to the community with their time and money.
I'm NOT trying to say that everyone (or even most people) in Vermont fit the description of people I've met. I'm describing only my experience, without generalizing about it. Of course, I've met a few stinkers from every group, such as people who would say unbelievably rude things, as Gypsy's husband's former boss. Good grief, what a jerk! But that's him. It doesn't indicate how others will behave.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logs and Dogs
Yeah, I’m friggin’ loaded, must be one of them wealthy outta-staters…………….
I love when I hear this………it cracks me up. Yup we’re loaded all right, so loaded we built our house ourselves for 2 years vs. paying someone else to do it, so loaded my truck has 84K miles on it and I bought it 7 weeks ago as my “new truck” and our car has 150K miles on her and she isn’t getting replaced anytime soon. So loaded we still work out of our same small starter home we bought when we were 23 years old 12 years ago with the same small arse mortgage. So loaded and privileged that I “only” work 60-70 hours per week along with my wife working the same………to afford what we want to do with our lives.
Speaking in generalizations doesn’t work too well.
I always have to shake my head at some of my native Vermonter friends talking about “rich outta staters” and “white plates” etc. even though they make $250-500K per year depending on the year and market and live in Chitty county in $400K+ homes with every toy one could imagine……….but those damn folks from “other places”.
Believe me I get the origination of it, I know the history of VT, unlike most people that live there or move there I did all my homework and knew what it was and what it wasn’t before buying property. I’m not the one who “ruined” the government(s) in VT, heck I can’t even vote, but I pay more taxes than most VT voters and it is what it is. I’m not the one who made the family farm model from 1950 obsolete, I didn’t found Wal-Mart and Lowes so feel free to not lump me into your generalizations.
I don’t mean to jump on you, you’re entitled to your own opinion, but…………….opinions do vary.
Good luck with your move.
Last edited by Sherylcatmom; 06-17-2010 at 08:31 AM..
Listen, I can understand some of the frustration that GypsySoul has and I also understand how some people can come to believe many of those generalizations; however they are opinion and not fact.
Heck, us “outta-staters” that didn’t win the birth lottery can make plenty of generalizations about “native Vermonters”. Let’s be clear here, the way most antagonistic “native Vermonters” define being a “native” and “non-flatlander” is purely by birth lottery. The ironic part is many of the antagonistic ones use the word “entitled” to describe many negative attributes of the folks from “away”……….yet I believe being born into something whether it is a trust fund family or perhaps a location and citizenship fit the textbook definition of “entitlement”………..so by being a fourth generation “native Vermonter” by birth means what again? Damn that is ironic.
I don’t mean to argue, I just have a spine and believe everyone’s life is what they make of it. Some have harder hands to play than others.
SCM – I think we agree.
(snip)
I don’t mean to argue, I just have a spine and believe everyone’s life is what they make of it. Some have harder hands to play than others.
Yup, I think we agree, too. No one gets a say in where they were born or into what circumstances, yet that largely determines what options are presented to us as we develop. Some manage to pull ahead and make good lives despite incredible hardship. Some born into great privilege squander it and find only misery. And everything in between.
I've never understood criticizing people for wanting to move where they prefer to live and improve their lives. It's how my family got to the US not all that long ago and how I got to Vermont. I'm grateful for both.
Logs,
I'm not from here. We've only been in this state 3 years. I do see what I see where I live. Again, this is based on my experience, and I do not think it is going to be 100% true for EVERYONE. This is just how I see it based on what has happened to us in 3 years.
The vast majority of 'this part' of VT is full of out of state people who come up a few weekends a month to their summer houses. I worked at one such place for awhile and YES they are the ones who priced the locals (or those who want to move in from other places) out of the market in that village. They RUN that village.
They have the money for 2 homes. Meanwhile the regular guy is being squeezed out.
The other part of 'our section' of VT are those who attend or work near the college or hospital. Thus the land is jacked up for those in the minority who can afford huge house at big prices like doctors and professors.
So the average person making the stock $10/hr is basically screwed. He or she works 2 jobs or if they get a decent job, they better not lose it because it's hard to find another.
Some of this is not just Vermont but the Northeast in general. Prices, taxes, whatever are just out of control. That is why you see a flight South.
It's not my intention to insult anyone. I feel for the person who moved here for a quiet life only to see themselves priced out of their homes in a few years. I also feel for the guy who lived here for years on the family farm and now can't afford to stay.
Obviously not every "flatlander" is some rich yuppy or welfare freeloader coming to destroy the state but there is a reason for these opinions: enough have come in and caused problems to get people riled up. Of course some of the biggest problems are the various socialists/hippies who invaded years ago, and the handful of rich yuppies who want to control the state and see it as their playground.
While people with higher salaries from other states surely contributed somewhat to the rising real estate prices that are out of reach for many of the states citizens, they are hardly the main cause. As mentioned, unless they live her they cannot even vote. Vermont's own citizens, whether from here or away originally, are to blame for this situation. Our government has constructed this situation, at our choosing.
The truth is Vermont's development laws made increasing the supply of housing difficult, time consuming and expensive. The same laws prevented building additional infrastructure to support additional housing anyway. On the other side of the coin, the anti-business climate combined with the same development laws are a great "Go Away" sign to businesses considering locating or expanding here. Even the extremely poor wages Vermonters tolerate aren't a big enough boon to make many companies consider braving the business climate here.
Obviously not every "flatlander" is some rich yuppy or welfare freeloader coming to destroy the state but there is a reason for these opinions: enough have come in and caused problems to get people riled up. Of course some of the biggest problems are the various socialists/hippies who invaded years ago, and the handful of rich yuppies who want to control the state and see it as their playground.
I know we’ve talked about this before and I don’t disagree with many of your observations as much, if not all is based on interpretations of actual events.
That being said we also know that a large contributor to the issue back in the day was the Live and Let Live approach to life by many old school Vermonters. One day they woke up and realized by not participating actively in the Democratic process or realizing the potential of the “threat” to their view of life and Vermont they were in a bad situation. I hate to quote a Rush tune here but “If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice”…………….so who’s to blame in that situation? It’s not as clear cut as some folks make it out to be.
Since I spend about 100-150 days a year in VT, I obviously have made friends with plenty of native folks and many have accepted us “as is” due to our work ethic and interests which coincide with many of them. I think once people realize that we don’t expect much and we are self made through hard work, they at least respect us. The birth lottery guys that like to throw out names and stereotypes don’t bother me anymore, if they want to hang their hat on the location of their first minute on Earth, have at it, I hope they feel good about themselves for a couple of minutes; I’ll bet that since that first minute of their life, I have outworked the bulk of them, and worked my ass off to get to enjoy VT for what it is.
I think another popular misconception is that the current crop of folks from “away” are like the first generation. Since it took so much effort for us to make our way to VT, why would I try to make it like the place I left? I don’t want paved roads, I don’t want street lights, our village doesn’t need anymore Bistros, a couple is enough……………if some of the die hard “anti-flatlanders” would open their eyes they would realize many folks from “away” are similar to them. Additionally they might realize some of their “native Vermonter” friends are part of the problem and not the solution.
Good post, Logs.
When we came here from our 'home state' we liked the idea of it being less crowded, less centered on 'shopping for recreation,' more open to exercise, walking and good healthy 'country living.'
We adapted to many of the ways of doing things here. We had to learn life is a go slow mentality which can be healthier than the insane pace of some other places. In some ways you learn to appreciate the beauty of a mountain, the lovely summer day, the fields, whatever.
It was only when I hit MONTHS of unemployment when I started to realize that this can't be a permanent stay. It's just too hard scrabble, in my opinion, here for the little return.
And, yes, people who are natives voted in this 'destructive' political machine. I find it surprising because people seem so involved in what goes on politically. How did this 'ruin Vermont crew' get in office in the first place?
I think your situation is tough, I honestly feel for you. I would love to think that we could move up there full time, but it just isn’t feasible for all the reasons you unfortunately ran into. I’m not saying I consciously made a better decision to not move up there, the reality is we wimped out on that due to “the man” paying us enough to not leave our current gigs and try and make it in VT full time. Plus, why would I as an outsider try and come in and compete with current VT residents for jobs? I don’t think I would make many friends that way and I think I would begin some serious frustration on my part.
We’ll live elsewhere eventually, if it is our place in VT full time, awesome.
The whole blame game on the current mess of VT politics is a circular “chicken vs. egg” scenario………….if the ”hippies et al” didn’t come, then there would be no problem vs. if the natives at the time stood up for their ways then there would be no problem……….you can go around in circles until you run out of beer.
I will say this, the influx of folks to VT didn’t make the family farm or dairy farm obsolete etc. which has dealt a rather large blow to the VT economy if I’m not mistaken. Due to the anti-business regulations and horrible business environment in many VT areas, the death of the family farm without any large scale earning/career alternative for Vermonters to transition to seems to be the problem I would look to pick on now vs. crap that happened 40 years ago.
Good post, Logs.
When we came here from our 'home state' we liked the idea of it being less crowded, less centered on 'shopping for recreation,' more open to exercise, walking and good healthy 'country living.'
We adapted to many of the ways of doing things here. We had to learn life is a go slow mentality which can be healthier than the insane pace of some other places. In some ways you learn to appreciate the beauty of a mountain, the lovely summer day, the fields, whatever.
It was only when I hit MONTHS of unemployment when I started to realize that this can't be a permanent stay. It's just too hard scrabble, in my opinion, here for the little return.
And, yes, people who are natives voted in this 'destructive' political machine. I find it surprising because people seem so involved in what goes on politically. How did this 'ruin Vermont crew' get in office in the first place?
They weren't taken seriously. Most people thought, they're just a bunch of kids doped up on drugs, fooling around in the woods. Nothing to take serious. Well, when the hippy types got tired of playing around in the woods and doing drugs a lot of them stayed and got into politics.
You just have to look at the population figures to see the state's population nearly doubled since the 60's.
Population in 1950: 377,747
1960: 389,881
So not much growth from 1950 to 1960.
1970: 444, 330
1980: 511,456
1990: 562,758
2000: 608,827
As of 2004 more than half of Vermont residents were born outside of Vermont.
That's how Vermonters lost our state.
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