Vermont school bans girls volleyball team from locker room following complaints about trans player (Randolph: attorney, school district)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Nothing has happened and Vermont is still a beautiful state.
Quote:
Originally Posted by in_newengland
I don't know what's happened to Vermont, such a beautiful state. I remember being age 14 and using the locker room and if a male had come in when we were changing, we would have practically died! We were sensitive about our changing bodies at that age and most of us were pretty shy about even having other girls look at us naked.
The person who is somewhere in between being male or female doesn't belong in either locker room, definitely not the girls. Women are losing their rights--abortion is challenged and could even be banned nationwide, boys can enter the girls locker room, and use the girls bathrooms. We can forget about privacy and respect. Dorms are co-ed.
Prudery is, at the core, just another method of control. Break a population into two factions at odds with each other and then encourage self-policing to make control in larger areas easier. The more strict the rules are concerning interrelations, ablutions, diet, and occupations, the easier it is for those in power to stay in power and intensify their reach. We get used to certain conventions, and change is hard.
-------
In a way, girls' locker rooms are the equivalent of a men only club. If you don't want one, you probably don't get to keep the other. I was personally a little surprised when female reporters got access to the locker rooms of major sports teams. Again, *shrug*
Don't try equating a junior or high school girls locker room with men only club.
Girls whose bodies are changing are subject to embarrassment and humiliation by their peers. Between hormones, bodily changes, being an early or late developer, newfound but unwelcome attention from boys and worse yet: adult men -- this is an extremely trying time. In fact, suicide attempts by adolescent girls are three times more frequent than those by boys.
A body with a penis does not belong in an locker room reserved for minor females.
It is bad enough that women still have to deal with narrow-minded people (of any gender) who believe that a woman is to blame for a rape based on her attire.
School dress codes target girls because, Heaven forbid, boys have to control themselves.
Boys will be boys, right?
Don't try equating a junior or high school girls locker room with men only club.
Girls whose bodies are changing are subject to embarrassment and humiliation by their peers. Between hormones, bodily changes, being an early or late developer, newfound but unwelcome attention from boys and worse yet: adult men -- this is an extremely trying time. In fact, suicide attempts by adolescent girls are three times more frequent than those by boys.
A body with a penis does not belong in an locker room reserved for minor females.
It is bad enough that women still have to deal with narrow-minded people (of any gender) who believe that a woman is to blame for a rape based on her attire.
School dress codes target girls because, Heaven forbid, boys have to control themselves.
Boys will be boys, right?
Thank you. It's hard to explain but for example, when I was in 7th grade we had one girl who developed early. She had the body (boobs) of a woman while the rest of us were at varying stages of development. All the girls used to try to see her in the shower and then they would talk about her. Finally it got so bad that the gym teacher allowed her to use a personal shower and a private changing room.
There is no conspiracy to separate us and control us, none of that. It's probably always been like this in our era with girls of that age. Girls are self conscious about their bodies. Maybe boys like to show off but most girls prefer to keep it private. Even adult women are often self conscious about having other women see them naked. It's normal and it's okay that we have a bit of modesty. Maybe a man would feel the same way about a disfiguring scar that he didn't want everyone to see. Most women appreciate some privacy from other women and definitely they don't want a man who thinks he's a woman to see them naked.
The girls deserve to get their locker room back and the boy who feels like a girl can get dressed elsewhere.
Don't try equating a junior or high school girls locker room with men only club.
Girls whose bodies are changing are subject to embarrassment and humiliation by their peers. Between hormones, bodily changes, being an early or late developer, newfound but unwelcome attention from boys and worse yet: adult men -- this is an extremely trying time. In fact, suicide attempts by adolescent girls are three times more frequent than those by boys.
A body with a penis does not belong in an locker room reserved for minor females.
It is bad enough that women still have to deal with narrow-minded people (of any gender) who believe that a woman is to blame for a rape based on her attire.
School dress codes target girls because, Heaven forbid, boys have to control themselves.
Boys will be boys, right?
Don't try dismissing an analogy because it isn't an exact fit. None of them are.
You don't think boys have issues with embarrassment? Not all boys are jocks who go around complimenting each other on their sizes or skills. I'll leave off descriptions of boys who develop earlier and the results. I'll leave off what happens to nerds and geeks and those small for their age. Bad enough that the welcomed attention of the opposite sex is focused on the athletes and "in-crowd."
Boys will be boys was always trotted out as an excuse, and a poor one at that. I think it may have been originally more a sign of exasperation than an excuse, but your point is completely valid.
I'll agree with you on dress codes in the U.S. as well. In the UK, the dress codes for boys have been more an issue, causing some who were not allowed to wear shorts in stifling heat (no AC over there and they had a record hot year) to wear skirts instead, much to the consternation of those in charge. Slightly different culture.
Being concerned over hormones and hormonal responses makes perfect sense. As you are aware, hormones can defy logic and societal rules if allowed unchecked. As a parent, protection of children is primary. The from what, when, and where are always in flux. What works for one, may not for another.
If you have a lot of energy for the issue, you have that energy. I don't, it is unlikely I ever will, and I just see a lot of this as inherent in the mess of having to live as humans.
Thank you. It's hard to explain but for example, when I was in 7th grade we had one girl who developed early. She had the body (boobs) of a woman while the rest of us were at varying stages of development. All the girls used to try to see her in the shower and then they would talk about her. Finally it got so bad that the gym teacher allowed her to use a personal shower and a private changing room.
There is no conspiracy to separate us and control us, none of that. It's probably always been like this in our era with girls of that age. Girls are self conscious about their bodies. Maybe boys like to show off but most girls prefer to keep it private. Even adult women are often self conscious about having other women see them naked. It's normal and it's okay that we have a bit of modesty. Maybe a man would feel the same way about a disfiguring scar that he didn't want everyone to see. Most women appreciate some privacy from other women and definitely they don't want a man who thinks he's a woman to see them naked.
The girls deserve to get their locker room back and the boy who feels like a girl can get dressed elsewhere.
I'm also self-conscious - even when I had a hot body. LOL. I just don't like undressing in front of anyone. I want my privacy.
I wonder if this came from high school where we had a female gym teacher who would pull back the shower curtain to make sure we were actually taking a shower. (we would pretend we were and like wet our legs....I can't recall why we sometimes didn't want to do a full shower but we all did it).
There is a huge difference in allowing transgender students in bathrooms and locker rooms and a sports association setting an age limit before which an athlete must have transitioned to eliminate a biological advantage. All over Europe- where FINA was founded and is based- people are legally allowed to use the bathroom which corresponds with the gender with which they identify.
Quote:
Originally Posted by in_newengland
I don't know what's happened to Vermont, such a beautiful state. I remember being age 14 and using the locker room and if a male had come in when we were changing, we would have practically died! We were sensitive about our changing bodies at that age and most of us were pretty shy about even having other girls look at us naked.
The person who is somewhere in between being male or female doesn't belong in either locker room, definitely not the girls. Women are losing their rights--abortion is challenged and could even be banned nationwide, boys can enter the girls locker room, and use the girls bathrooms. We can forget about privacy and respect. Dorms are co-ed.
You may not feel that a "body with a penis" belongs in a female locker room but, under Vermont State law, transgender students are allowed to use the bathroom and locker room of the gender they identify with. (For that matter transgender adults are also allowed to use the locker room that fits with their gender identity.) And while we are looking at suicide stats, transgender adolescents face a 7.6 percent higher risk of suicide than their cisgender peers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by atypicalLIer
Don't try equating a junior or high school girls locker room with men only club.
Girls whose bodies are changing are subject to embarrassment and humiliation by their peers. Between hormones, bodily changes, being an early or late developer, newfound but unwelcome attention from boys and worse yet: adult men -- this is an extremely trying time. In fact, suicide attempts by adolescent girls are three times more frequent than those by boys.
A body with a penis does not belong in an locker room reserved for minor females.
It is bad enough that women still have to deal with narrow-minded people (of any gender) who believe that a woman is to blame for a rape based on her attire.
School dress codes target girls because, Heaven forbid, boys have to control themselves.
Boys will be boys, right?
Don't try dismissing an analogy because it isn't an exact fit. None of them are.
You don't think boys have issues with embarrassment? Not all boys are jocks who go around complimenting each other on their sizes or skills. I'll leave off descriptions of boys who develop earlier and the results. I'll leave off what happens to nerds and geeks and those small for their age. Bad enough that the welcomed attention of the opposite sex is focused on the athletes and "in-crowd."
Boys will be boys was always trotted out as an excuse, and a poor one at that. I think it may have been originally more a sign of exasperation than an excuse, but your point is completely valid.
I'll agree with you on dress codes in the U.S. as well. In the UK, the dress codes for boys have been more an issue, causing some who were not allowed to wear shorts in stifling heat (no AC over there and they had a record hot year) to wear skirts instead, much to the consternation of those in charge. Slightly different culture.
Being concerned over hormones and hormonal responses makes perfect sense. As you are aware, hormones can defy logic and societal rules if allowed unchecked. As a parent, protection of children is primary. The from what, when, and where are always in flux. What works for one, may not for another.
If you have a lot of energy for the issue, you have that energy. I don't, it is unlikely I ever will, and I just see a lot of this as inherent in the mess of having to live as humans.
Would the boys feel comfortable with a biological female identifying as male in their locker room?
My neighbor's pre-surgery, transgender son wanted to use the boys' locker room at our HS. Guess what? The boys -- whether athletic or 90 pound weaklings -- didn't want him in there. A few made veiled threats, some were uncomfortable.
What can be done? If a person identifies as the opposite gender but is presurgical, we want them to be in a safe, comfortable surrounding. But what about those who are not comfortable with a presurgical transgender person in their single-gender space? Their concerns matter, too. That's where I take issue. Both parties need to feel safe and comfortable. There needs to be a 3rd locker room, available to all who are comfortable sharing the space.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
