Is virginia southern? (Richmond, Hampton, Smithfield: live, foods, relocation)
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I wish I had a dollar for every thread on C-D involving just where and what is the South and just what states do or don't belong! LOL
Anyway, there will never be any definitive and all accepted answer. There are some "Deep South Purists" out there who limit the definition to only 3 - 5 states. At the other extreme, there is the U.S. Census Bureau classifications which groups 16 states within.
Personally, "my South" is the 11 Old Confederate States plus Kentucky, Oklahoma and West Virginia. But that is just me.
Anyway, at least one very interesting definition (if there is any) of the South is that part of the country where a clear majority of residents consider themselves to live in the South and think of themselves as Southerners.
Here is the result of a seven year study out of the U. Of North Carolina, that attempted just that:
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WHERE IS THE SOUTH?
The South has been defined by a great many characteristics, but one of the most interesting definitions is where people believe that they are in the South. A related definition is where the residents consider themselves to be southerners, although this is obviously affected by the presence of non-southern migrants.
Until recently we did not have the data to answer the question of where either of those conditions is met. Since 1992, however, 14 twice-yearly Southern Focus Polls conducted by the Institute for Research in Social Science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill have asked respondents from the 11 former Confederate states, Kentucky, and Oklahoma "Just for the record, would you say that your community is in the South, or not?" Starting with the third of the series, the same question was asked of smaller samples of respondents from West Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, the District of Columbia, and Missouri (all except Missouri included in the Bureau of the Census's "South"). Respondents from the 13 southern states were also asked "Do you consider yourself a Southerner, or not?," while starting with the second survey those from other states were asked "Do you consider yourself or anyone in your family a Southerner?," and if so, whether they considered themselves to be Southerners.
It is clear from these data that if the point is to isolate southerners for study or to compare them to other Americans the definition of the South employed by the Southern Focus Poll (and, incidentally, by the Gallup Organization) makes sense, while the Bureau of the Census definiton does not. We already knew that, of course, but it's good to be able to document it.
--John Shelton Reed
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Percent who say their community is in the South (percentage base in parentheses)
Ask even educated Americans what states form "the South," and youre likely to get 100 different answers. Almost everyone will agree on Deep South states -- except maybe Florida -- but which border states belong and which dont can be endlessly debated.
Now, the Southern Focus Poll, conducted by the Institute for Research in Social Science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, provides strong support for including such states as Texas, Kentucky and Oklahoma in the South. On the other hand, West Virginia, Maryland, Missouri, Delaware and the District of Columbia dont belong anymore, if they ever did.
Fourteen polls, surveying a total of more than 17,000 people between 1992 and 1999 show, for example, that only 7 percent of D.C. residents responding say that they live in the South.
Only 14 percent of Delaware residents think they live in the region, followed by Missourians with 23 percent, Marylanders with 40 percent and West Virginians with 45 percent.
"We found 84 percent of Texans, 82 percent of Virginians, 79 percent of Kentuckians and 69 percent of Oklahomans say they live in the South," says Dr. John Shelton Reed, director of the institute. "Our findings correspond to the traditional 13-state South as defined by the Gallup organization and others, but is different from the Census Bureaus South, which doesnt make sense."
The U.S. Census Bureau includes Delaware, D.C., Maryland and West Virginia in its definition.
"Clearly some parts of Texas arent Southern whatever you mean by that -- and some parts of Maryland are," Reed said. "But sometimes you need to say what the Southern states are, and this kind of information can help you decide. Our next step is to look inside individual states like Texas, break the data down by county, and say, for example, where between Beaumont and El Paso people stop telling you that youre in the South."
A report on the findings, produced by UNC-CHs Institute for Research in Social Science, will appear in the June issue of the journal "Southern Cultures." Reed, who directs the institute, says the results should interest many people including survey, marketing and census researchers.
"Personally, I think they ought to be interesting too to ordinary folk who are curious about where people stop telling you youre in the South as youre travelling west or north," he said. "Where that is has been kind of hard to say sometimes."
Perhaps surprisingly, 11 percent of people in Utah, 10 percent in Indiana and slighter fewer people in Illinois, Ohio, Arizona and Michigan claim to be Southerners.
"Thats because in the early part of this century millions of people left the South, and their migration was one of the great migrations not just in American history, but in world history," Reed said. "Their children may not think of themselves as Southern, but they still do."
The UNC-CH sociologist said he was surprised that 51 percent of Floridians describe themselves as Southerners even though 90 percent know their community is in the South.
"Florida is the only state in lower 48 where most people living there werent born there," he said. "In fact, most of them werent born in the South, much less in Florida."
Because of the Souths growing economy, only between 90 and 80 percent of residents of Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, Tennessee, Arkansas, Georgia and the Carolinas said they are Southerners, the surveys showed.
"If you want to define the South as where people say it is, now we have a better sense of it," Reed said. "For the most part, it confirms what I already suspected, which is why Im glad to see it. This work shows something we wanted to show, but havent been able to before."
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Fascinating that this has remained civil! You just can't deny Virginia's history, but that's just it; history! Southside VA is very uber southern, Danville has the only Piggly Wiggly I've ever seen, and according to the stores website, they only have 2 in VA and they're in Danville. SW VA is weird to me. It's Appalachian culture and not really southern or northern. I expect to find the same people in MD's and PA's appalachian ranges as well. The Shenandoah Valley has a somewhat central PA feel to me. And the eastern half of the state is very densley populated along i64 and up into i95 into DC. Over 5 million people live along this corridor in the state. And Richmond despite it's southern history has a dense historic urban feel to it, like a smaller Baltimore or Philadelphia. Norfolk has the port and it's heavy industry like a oceanside version of Pittsburgh. Just overlay all of this with what southern culture there is and you have VA. A very mid atlantic state, geographically and increasingly culturally. You enter from the south(barring Hampton Roads) where it is very southern and by the time you exit at the north you're in the north.
Aside from the military folks, HR is pretty southern to me. Its like a mix of redneck/military/urban(hood). The cities are very southern-ish. Especially Virginia Beach, Suffolk, Chesapeake, and Portsmouth. Norfolk is the only city that may give you a mixed vibe (like a smaller version of B-More), but even Norfolk is like your typical small southern city. Newport News has a New Orleans/Memphis/Richmond vibe. Virginia Beach is similar to cities in upper Florida. Portsmouth is like a small town (which is something I like about it by the way).
There is no checklist of things that need to exist in order to make a place Southern. To me, it's a lifestyle, a pace, and yes, certain foods, music and drinks.
This question always seems a bit silly to me, though. Parts of Virginia, as with any other place, can be whatever you want them to be. If you consider it the South and you are looking for Southern characteristics to support that notion, then you will most certainly find them in Virginia. However, if you do not consider it the South, many places (mainly Northern Virginia) have become so diluted and transient, that it is incredibly easy to live there and have no association with Virginia's Southern culture or history.
The exact same thing could be said about Atlanta, where I was born. My parents and older siblings lived there for several years, and they do not describe it as being very Southern. None of their friends there were from the South, the food wasn't particularly Southern, and it was a huge urban area with several different associated suburbs. Obviously, Atlanta is Southern and there are plenty of characteristics there to support that. But my parents weren't interested in being involved with that part of the culture. So to them, it wasn't.
DC has had a similar effect on the suburbs of northern Virginia, that doesn't render the entire state un-Southern. My goodness! As a whole, I'd say Virginia is absolutely Southern. I lived in Virginia my whole life until a couple years ago. I look back on my time in Charlottesville and think about how much I miss living in the South - the slower pace, the rolling pastures of the Blue Ridge, bluegrass music, being able to find cornbread and grits at restaurants and grocery stores, Virginia Gentleman bourbon...mmmm. Is it Alabama? No, thankfully! (Just kidding). It's Virginia! Could you live there and choose not to pick up on such characteristics? Sure, but why would you? By doing so you aren't truly appreciating your surroundings and the incredibly rich history of the place.
Virginia certainly has southern roots, but I think it's gradually losing its southern culture, although you can still find it alive and well in some areas.
The entire country is changing demographically. People are more mobile than ever. A hundred years ago most people died within 10 miles of where they were born. Today the majorty of people have lived somewhere far away from their birthplace at least once in their life. Then you have the massive influx of immigrants over the last few decades who have no particular ties to any region of the United States.
Virginia has proven very attractive as a destination for people looking to relocate, so we've lost more of our southern culture than any other traditional southern state aside from Florida. That trend will probably continue, although you're starting to see the same thing happening in NC now. In fifty years we'll be another Florida with most residents either first or second generation newcomers who don't really care about the whole southern thing.
Kreutz, I think what you mean is mid-atlantic. "Mid-South" would be the middle of the South, but I get what you're trying to say.
VA7cities, I get what you're saying about Hampton Roads, but doesn't that just add to the fact that particular area of Virginia is too diverse to be truly southern?
But DC is the South too...Who cares about feel? That's an subjective personal opinion...Virginia is part of the South cause that's the way the government whom formed the North/South boundaries defined it.
Washington D.C. is not the South. Nor are Maryland and Delaware.
The U.S. Census Bureau definition is outdated and not relevant in this context. Just tell someone from Tennessee, Alabama, or Georgia that you're from the South and that you're from D.C., Wilmington, or Baltimore. See the reaction you get.
You seem to think the bureau's classification is absolute in this, but it is not. The fact that the D.C. metro area and up aren't the South is not a divisive opinion. Most in the Northeast and the South would agree on that fact. Those quoting the bureau are exercising in sheer folly.
Washington D.C. is not the South. Nor are Maryland and Delaware.
The U.S. Census Bureau definition is outdated and not relevant in this context. Just tell someone from Tennessee, Alabama, or Georgia that you're from the South and that you're from D.C., Wilmington, or Baltimore. See the reaction you get.
You seem to think the bureau's classification is absolute in this, but it is not. The fact that the D.C. metro area and up aren't the South is not a divisive opinion. Most in the Northeast and the South would agree on that fact. Those quoting the bureau are exercising in sheer folly.
Uh..technically there are...The Southeast is a region defined by the government not a culture or someone's personal opinion...Maryland, DC, and Virginia happen to lie in the upper Southeast(which is likely the reason they are influenced by the Northeast) but that still doesn't change the fact that geographically they are in the Southeast region.
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I wish I had a dollar for every thread on C-D involving just where and what is the South and just what states do or don't belong! LOL 
