NHL open to another expansion franchise in Atlanta (Alpharetta, Dunwoody: house, unemployment)
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I, as a Philadelphia sports fan, have never liked the Falcons, solely because of the fans, and especially, the Braves, but I respected the fact that Atlanta was able to keep all three sports team in Atlanta. When the Thrashers came to Atlanta, that made it four, but I always had the feeling that the Thrashers wouldn't make it, and they no longer exist. Summerhill could've been Atlanta's version of Fenway, Wrigleyville, and Camden Yards, but the Braves and the regional leaders didn't see a need to stay in the city of Atlanta, and Truist Park in Cumberland is the result!
Since I've tried to vouch for MARTA to extend to Cumberland, I forget that I'm in GA, in which outside of Atlanta, is not interested in any mass transit project, and not in FL, which has done everything to increase mass transit projects throughout the state. I also fail to see how metro Atlanta can continue to be the largest metro in the Southeast when it doesn't have a decent commuter rail system.
The Atlanta metro extends to almost two hours into AL, and Athens, which is too far away, and only accessible by car. My issue isn't with Atlanta's growth, but how very spread out it is, almost like LA, and even LA now has an expanding mass transit system while Atlanta is nothing but freeways and highways outside of Atlanta.
That's the CSA not the MSA,
Atlanta does need badly to expand transit but Atlanta doesn't need transits to expand to every exurban corner.
2/3 of metro population stays in 5 counties. if MARTA was in all 5 core counties. That alone would already be adequate to reach most of the metro population. Anything beyond that Cherokee, Forsyth, Henry probably be the next tier. than the rest of the ARC 11 county region. Talking about CSA exurbs in Alabama has no relevance in conversation about transit.
And trust me, as someone from that area, that would be an intentional thing. They don't want anyone who lives south of the gold dome to ever come up to North Fulton and Forsyth. They'll purposely make it difficult to get there via any way other than driving in a long traffic jam, and they'll make the tickets expensive, too.
The idea of putting an arena in South Forsyth is not by accident- that's the geographic center of the khakis-wearing crowd that they would want to be fans and buy the tickets and come to the games, and walk around a little bit in their sterile, fake-urban mixed-use development with thousands of parking spaces.
They'd want it to be a team for Forsyth, Cherokee, East Cobb, North Fulton, and West Gwinnett. And Dunwoody/Brookhaven. You know, all the nice areas.
That much makes sense and all on paper, but I just don't like that that's the reality. I wish ATL would embrace and develop its downtown, and mass transit/ a regional rail system and culture. Especially for a city that was originally built as a railroad town, and surrounded by small historic railroad towns along the lines.
I have mix feeling about NHL team in Forsyth County, I feel it should be closer in and more centralize. but i do like that up in Forsyth County they do have plans for some urbanizing. Cherokee, and Forsyth counties are going to both pass 300k.
Everything isn't going to just suddenly just stop and everybody move just to Downtown. The reality is Atlanta need multi area approach to urbanizism. The city and the Suburbs need to urbanize in some areas.
Atlanta doesn't have a water feature or anything like that but the North Metro has Lake Lanier and Mountains close by. So it makes sense why The metro is growing to the North. The project Creates a needed urban town center up there.
If they were smart, the various powers that be would get together, and they'd combine business/big mixed use real estate development interests/economic growth (the things that Metro ATL does know how to do), all in one package with the mass transit expansion, along with the infrastructure need to move tons of people to sports games and big events and such. Especially given the heavy rail mass transit backbone that they already have in place, but refuse to expand. And even more especially since MARTA is getting those nice new trains soon, which is going to be like a nice modern refresh of the system.
MARTA's Green Line is currently a next to useless stub right now, but could be the best. And without even bringing it OTP.
First, extend the Green Line trains to the full length 4 cars (this is planned), and then extend it to run all the way to Avondale along with the Blue Line (I believe this is planned as well). Then the line would serve the excellent, walkable downtown Decatur station, as well as have park & ride at Avondale for people heading west on that line.
Then somebody does a big Hulsey Yard mixed use development, with an infill Krog St/Cabbagetown station built with it, on the Green and Blue lines. Right on the Beltline, directly integrated with it. Walking distance to Krog St market and all that. Also platform-integrated with a Beltline light rail line, which would run up to Ponce Market and all around the Beltline.
Then you do the whole redevelop of the interior and exterior of the Five Points central hub transfer station, with of course the line connecting there coming straight from the airport, and Midtown/Buckhead/Perimeter. Invest add more density, towers, and stuff right around there. Add a new Amtrak and potential future regional/commuter train hub in the Gulch area, connected both to that station and the station to the west (the one with the long confusing name- I would rename it to Centennial Olympic Park station.) And of course the big gulch master plan of all the towers to be built to be on top of it all.
The State Farm Arena right there, would be home to the NBA Atlanta Hawks, and a new franchise version of the NHL Atlanta Thrashers, and Mercedes Benz stadium also right there, home to the NFL Atlanta Falcons, and MLS Atlanta United. Could be 4 major pro teams all directly connected to the MARTA system (which is very nicely connected to the world's busiest airport), Amtrak national network via a new Atlanta station, and the suburbs and other regional towns via commuter rail lines to there, etc. An historic grand central union station type area. Perfect location for those teams to play.
Then you redevelop and revamp and rename what's currently the far underused Bankhead station on the Green line, to something invoking the Westside Park and Proctor Creek trail right there (and the Beltline as well), and new TOD mixed used developments along with it.
Then all you have to do is just add 2 more stations to that line, with one of them being within the city. Just run the Green Line above ground/aerially, out to the Moore's Mill/Bolton area, and put a station there, connected to all the new development going on there. Finally really connecting that part of NW Atlanta to the rest of the city. Plus nice river trails could be connected to that, as well. And then just run the line elevated along that CSX railroad line (which is owned by the state, btw)- elevated high above Vinings (or maybe in a cut and cover shallow tunnel) so as to minimally disturb them.
Run it underneath Cumberland Mall, to a final station on the other side of the mall, ITP at 41, next to the existing pedestrian bridge to the Galleria (and other pedestrian bridge from there over to the Battery/Truist Park), and build a bunch of new tower developments with it, both at the mall and the Galleria and the Battery, and just... all built up, there. As well as a nice transfer point for Cobb's bus system, and BRT up the 41 corridor.
That would connect the MLB Atlanta Braves, to the same system as the rest of the teams and city. But people could also still drive there, if they want to. There'd still be the same amount of parking as there is now, or actually probably more. But the point is that you wouldn't have to rely on one mode of (space inefficient) transportation, for getting everyone in and out of that Cumberland area.
All just seems like common sense to me, win-win's all for everyone's interests around there. But, whatever. All hail the automobile, I guess.
I think it would be cool for a new NHL team in the north Atlanta suburbs, but I think it's a big mistake and missed opportunity. So is not extending the MARTA line to Cumberland, regardless of whether Cobb fully joins MARTA or not. Just draw up a contract with MARTA for that one station, for transfer purposes. Then MARTA heavy rail would at least serve the NW ITP area. It doesn't need to go further than that, especially if there are commuter rail lines serving the rest of Cobb.
I agree that metro Atlanta definitely needs to exercise and execute a much more robust and wide-ranging vision for the region… And with the obviously limited capacity of Atlanta’s metropolitan arterial road network, I certainly think that it is possible that the powers-that-be will eventually come together to execute a much wider ranging regional transit vision that may be led by Atlanta’s large and dominating regional business and major corporate community… Though, I unfortunately think that such a major move may still be decades away.
But in regards to the potential return of an NHL franchise back to the Atlanta market, while seeing said potential future Atlanta area NHL franchise play their home games in State Farm Arena and (along with the Falcons, the United and the Hawks) be the centerpiece of the potential future massive transit-focused redevelopment of the Gulch and South Downtown Atlanta area would be highly preferable and desirable from the standpoint of transit-advocating urbanisms, I’m not sure if a return to State Farm Arena would be the best thing for a potential future Atlanta area NHL franchise.
I think that a potential future Atlanta area NHL franchise would desperately need to be based in a hockey-specific arena that would be attached to and surrounded by a very robust revenue-generating large-scale mixed use entertainment complex development… That is so that said major league professional sports organization would be able to generate maximum profits and would be able to experience the type of financial stability that would guarantee that a third Atlanta area NHL franchise would be able to remain in the Atlanta market permanently, without any fear of either (yet again) eventually relocating to another market (likely in Canada) or eventually ceasing operations and folding.
I think that the proposed large-scale mixed-use development and entertainment complex revenue-generation component of the plan to attract an NHL team back to the Atlanta market is what could really help to make NHL hockey remain in Atlanta this time.
And I don’t necessarily think that locating an NHL team in an area with a highly robust and thriving local amateur hockey scene dominated by $100k median income households is the worst idea… That’s even if the aforementioned area with a thriving local amateur hockey scene and a very large cluster of $100k earning households happens to be located in what for many ITP and urban metro Atlantans very understandably seems to be a far-flung Northside suburb like the South Forsyth County side of Alpharetta.
Unfortunately for many ITP and even Southside metro Atlanta residents, I think that the only way that this plan to bring an NHL franchise back to the Atlanta market likely works is if said potential future Atlanta area NHL franchise plays its home games in a hockey-specific arena surrounded by a revenue/profit-generating large mixed-use entertainment complex development in Atlanta’s hockey-crazed northern suburbs and exurbs.
The northern suburbs just seem to have the most favorable demographics (including hundreds of tech companies in the Alpharetta area alone, a large concentration of high-paying jobs, a very large concentration of $100k+ median income earning households, and a large and thriving community of hockey lovers) to make NHL hockey be a sustained success in the Atlanta market the third time around.
I agree that having a potential future Atlanta area NHL team play its home games at a site in a very suburban Forsyth County is not exactly the perfect example of urbanism… But I don’t care how imperfect the site proposal may be from an urbanist’s standpoint if it helps to bring an NHL franchise back to the Atlanta market and helps to permanently keep an NHL franchise in the Atlanta market this time.
If Alpharetta/South Forsyth County is the best (and probably only) vehicle to attract an NHL franchise back to the Atlanta market, then (even with as unusual as it may sound to locate a major league professional sports team about 30 miles north of Downtown Atlanta) I likely be willing to support that plan.
Also, if not Perimeter Center, then secondary options can be (if not Downtown):
1. Lindbergh Center
2. Atlanta Station in northern Midtown.
Anything within Atlanta is permissible. It's bad enough people have to commute for over an hour just to go to an urban center.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiatldal
That's the CSA not the MSA,
Atlanta does need badly to expand transit but Atlanta doesn't need transits to expand to every exurban corner.
2/3 of metro population stays in 5 counties. if MARTA was in all 5 core counties. That alone would already be adequate to reach most of the metro population. Anything beyond that Cherokee, Forsyth, Henry probably be the next tier. than the rest of the ARC 11 county region. Talking about CSA exurbs in Alabama has no relevance in conversation about transit.
That's what I meant, not just the MSA. The CSA expands up to 2 hours to Chambers County, AL, which is far, far away! If that's the case, then the Miami CSA needs to extend to Ft Myers and Naples, so long as a significant amount of commuters from Collier and Lee Counties commute to Ft Lauderdale and Miami.
Anything within Atlanta is permissible. It's bad enough people have to commute for over an hour just to go to an urban center.
That's what I meant, not just the MSA. The CSA expands up to 2 hours to Chambers County, AL, which is far, far away! If that's the case, then the Miami CSA needs to extend to Ft Myers and Naples, so long as a significant amount of commuters from Collier and Lee Counties commute to Ft Lauderdale and Miami.
People don't commute across Alligator Alley or the Tamiami Trail.
Also, if not Perimeter Center, then secondary options can be (if not Downtown):
1. Lindbergh Center
2. Atlanta Station in northern Midtown.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer34
Anything within Atlanta is permissible. It's bad enough people have to commute for over an hour just to go to an urban center.
Areas like Perimeter Center, Lindbergh Center and Atlantic Station obviously would be excellent sites for a potential future Atlanta area NHL franchise to play its home games because of their centralized geographical locations and the generally decent/good logistical access they seemingly would be able to provide to much of the Atlanta metropolitan area as a whole.
Though, some noticeable challenges with those three centralized sites seem to be that:
1) None of the three aforementioned sites seem to have the sizable amount of land available for a potential future Atlanta area NHL franchise to build a large revenue-generating mixed-use development entertainment complex immediately adjacent to a potential future hockey-specific arena.
Which having a sizable amount of land available adjacent to the site of their home arena for the construction of a large mixed-use entertainment complex is absolutely critical to making the proposal to bring an NHL franchise back to the Atlanta market work financially because of how critically important the money revenue/profit-generation component will be to making said NHL franchise remain sustainable in the Atlanta market for the long term. The proposal to bring an NHL team back to the Atlanta market just simply does not seem to be viable without the large mixed-use entertainment complex component…
2) There doesn’t appear to be any investor factions that seem to be interested in locating an NHL franchise in the Atlanta metropolitan area further south than Alpharetta.
The effort to bring an NHL franchise back to Atlanta appears to very much be led by highly affluent OTP Northside suburbanites and exurbanites who are focused on locating a potential future Atlanta area NHL franchise in an OTP northern suburb like Alpharetta.
There currently appears to be two investor groups that are working to bring NHL hockey back to the Atlanta market, and both of those investor groups are targeting sites along the Georgia 400 North OTP corridor… With one investor group targeting the current site of the aging North Point Mall for an NHL arena-anchored mixed-use development entertainment complex and the other investor group targeting the frequently-mentioned Alpharetta/South Forsyth County site for what seems to be an even larger hockey-specific NHL arena-anchored mixed-use development entertainment complex.
People don't commute across Alligator Alley or the Tamiami Trail.
If it means getting higher wages in Ft Lauderdale and Miami as opposed to Ft Myers and Naples, anything's possible. Why do people from New Haven, CT, Toms River, NJ, and the Poconos in PA commute to NYC everyday? It's the wages!
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Good access for people who wish to take the train or drive. I suspect that's our new 'center of gravity' as well.
