Real sports segment on tyson fury - anyone watch? (fight)
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But the NFL can siphon off their ~500 potential heavyweights and that still leaves billions of men all over the world, right?
No, I'm saying that a lot of bigger guys won't even consider boxing because they get pulled into other sports by junior high school. And they usually only consider it as a backup career once NFL/NBA dreams don't materialize. Go through the Top 10 fighters in the Welterweight Division and tell me how many picked up a career in boxing at age 24.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
It seems like we can say "where are the great American heavyweights of the 60s/70s/80s" but couldn't we also say where were the great European heavyweights during the 60s/70s/80s?
There were and still are a lot of great fighters from former Communist bloc nations. They just weren't allowed to compete during the Cold War.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
$450k sounds like a lot until you realize the average NFL career is only 3 years. That's only $1.4M. After taxes, they are probably living like the common man if they don't have a backup plan and strict budget.
That's still much more than the average boxer. I'm going to assume you don't really follow this sport. Here's an HBO card from 2011.
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Nonito Donaire ($350,000) TKO-2 Fernando Montiel ($250,000)
Mike Jones ($75,000) UD-12 Jesus Soto Karass ($75,000)
Mark Jason Melligen ($10,000) UD-10 Gabriel Martinez ($6,000)
Mickey Bey Jr. ($8,000) MD-8 Jose Hernandez ($6,000)
Mike Alvarado ($20,000) RTD-4 Dean Harrison ($8,000)
Yordenis Ugas ($3,000) UD-6 Carlos Musquez ($2,500)
Rodrigo Garcia ($5,000) UD-4 Gerald Jordan ($3,500)
Ignacio Garcia ($2,200) MD-4 Armando Dorantes ($2,800)
The other thing about boxing is that early losses in your career can extinguish the potential big pay day. Just ask Mike Jones. He was one of the more promising fighters coming out of Philly, but he's been a ghost since his lost to Herrera.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
My guess is that the median boxer salary has always been lower than the major sports. I mean, is the 200th ranked heavyweight in 1965 making more money than an average football or baseball player? Median family income was around $6500 in 1965...from what I can look up, the average football player made around $35k in 1965. That's nearly 5x median family income. Would kids nowadays still want to play traditional sports if they were paid MD money?
Professional football players were not compensated then as they are today. To put things in perspective, O.J. Simpson signed a 4-year, $250,000 contract in 1969. He was a superstar and he signed the 2016 equivalent of a $1.6 million deal. A doctor, lawyer or banker could easily make that much money in a four year period.
But the NFL can siphon off their ~500 potential heavyweights and that still leaves billions of men all over the world, right? And I'm sure there were still plenty of men back in the 60s that wanted to be NFL players rather than boxers...maybe a lesser percentage than now, but probably still more. Personally, I don't know any older men that boxed as teens, but I know plenty that played high school football.
That depends on where you grew up. Philadelphia has probably produced more professional fighters than any other city.
No, I'm saying that a lot of bigger guys won't even consider boxing because they get pulled into other sports by junior high school. And they usually only consider it as a backup career once NFL/NBA dreams don't materialize. Go through the Top 10 fighters in the Welterweight Division and tell me how many picked up a career in boxing at age 24.
But most guys were pulled into those sports during the 60s too. If a kid can play 2 or 3 sports in a year, what's stopping them from boxing too? NFL/NBA careers usually start to materialize by 14-15 yrs old - most pro players are recruited by 9th or 10th grade (14-15 yrs old). But still, there are BILLIONS of men who don't care about the NFL/NBA. Where are they? And of course welterweights start boxing earlier...most of them start their pro career as what...120lb squirts?
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That's still much more than the average boxer. I'm going to assume you don't really follow this sport. Here's an HBO card from 2011.
One of the boxers listed that was paid $75,000 (for one fight!) is ranked #72 in the world by Boxing Rec. What were similar nobodies being paid in the 60s? And that's just one fighter in one weight division. Regardless, there's A LOT of money to be made and A LOT of men who'll know they aren't going to the NFL by at least 15 or 16 yrs old. Why are they not stepping up instead of doing nothing at 17-18 yrs old?
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Professional football players were not compensated then as they are today. To put things in perspective, O.J. Simpson signed a 4-year, $250,000 contract in 1969. He was a superstar and he signed the 2016 equivalent of a $1.6 million deal. A doctor, lawyer or banker could easily make that much money in a four year period.
$250k over 4 years is $50k/year. That's about 6.5x the average family income in 1969. 6.5x the current average income is $325k/year. That's insane money to me. That's as much as a cardiologist makes...and they go to school !~12 years coming out of school with $100k+ debt.
What kid in 1969 wouldn't love to have OJ money from playing a game that's fun?
Of course OJ's salary doesn't compare to current stars, but it's kinda weird when people act as if athletes 50+ years ago were living in poverty when they made something like $10k+/year. I've heard my parents and grandparents talking about working for $2/hr back then.
I'll be the first to admit I don't keep up with boxing other than the biggest names, but that doesn't invalidate my argument in any way.
The amount of kids wanting to play football in the 60s and 70s probably far outnumbered those into boxing. Tell me what kind of money the 50-300th ranked heavyweight was making back then and you might have a point about money getting kids more into boxing. As of now, the current crop are the best and many of them make millions doing it. Trying to take away from their accomplishments by saying better fighters went after the NFL sounds like an excuse for American heavyweight not being that good.
The reason people say kids are chasing the NFL is because a disproportionate number of heavyweight fighters didn't grow up in the sport. That's not the case in the lower weight classes.
And yes, the money to be made in other sports likely entices kids away from boxing because boxing is relatively high risk, low reward. Not even comparable to the situation as it existed in the 50s/60s where many NFL players were holding down second jobs as insurance salesmen.
And yes, the money to be made in other sports likely entices kids away from boxing because boxing is relatively high risk, low reward. Not even comparable to the situation as it existed in the 50s/60s where many NFL players were holding down second jobs as insurance salesmen.
You're dodging the question though. What type of money were average heavyweights making in 60s? More than average NFL player who made $35k (5-6x the median household income)? Sure Ali and Liston made a bunch, but what about the other guys? If the current crop of champions is so weak why can't a country with 300M people have some guys sneak through and reign over the division? "They're all chasing football" sounds like a cop out.
Where are the late 60s-early 70s kids that grew up and would've got into boxing when Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Holmes and Norton were fighting? Heavyweight champions still made a ton of money into the Tyson/Holyfield era right? Wasn't Tyson the highest paid athlete in the 80s?
Looking back at some old fights...in 1995 Lewis and Tommy Morrison split $16M for their fight. Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, Bowe, Foreman, Bruno, etc were all making tons of money in the 90s. Kids 8-12 yrs old back then would be about 30 yrs old right now.
You're dodging the question though. What type of money were average heavyweights making in 60s? More than average NFL player who made $35k (5-6x the median household income)? Sure Ali and Liston made a bunch, but what about the other guys? If the current crop of champions is so weak why can't a country with 300M people have some guys sneak through and reign over the division? "They're all chasing football" sounds like a cop out.
How did we get from 25K to 35K?
There is no reliable data on how much fighters made in the 1960s. I'm sure you would have found it by now.
I think it's safe to say, however, that the average NFL salary has skyrocketed ($1.9 million) whereas the average purse in professional boxing hasn't. You could be on an NFL practice squad and make more than lot of well-known fighters.
The ceiling in boxing is higher than the ceiling in other sports but the floor is much, much lower. And the middle is much, much lower. So if money is truly an incentivizing force, then it's simply going to be the case that fewer people are going to aspire to be boxers. The odds of getting a $1.9 million check as a pro boxer are not good.
Looking back at some old fights...in 1995 Lewis and Tommy Morrison split $16M for their fight. Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, Bowe, Foreman, Bruno, etc were all making tons of money in the 90s. Kids 8-12 yrs old back then would be about 30 yrs old right now.
And the Oakland Raiders have 33 guys on their roster making in excess of $1 million per season. And a lot of them are bums.
If you're 6'3, 245 lbs, why would you work at a sport where the average guy makes $50K (before paying a trainer) when you could play a sport where the average guy makes $1.9 million? Why waste your time?
And it seems that this is what people are thinking because American heavyweights are mostly ex-football and basketball players. Boxing is not their sport of choice; they are choosing it because a career in some other sport didn't pan out. You've completely sidestepped that fact.
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