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And it's not like American football was nearly as popular in the 60s as it is today. Football has a much bigger grip on the American imagination today than it did 40-50 years ago and much greater financial reward for the select few who can reach the highest plateaus of the sport. America still produces quality fighters, but they are mostly in the smaller weight classes since guys of Mayweather's stature have fewer choices in sports. But bigger guys are going to be selected for other sports and they have a greater incentive to stick with those sports. Then when your career as a football player hits a dead end, as it did for Seth Mitchell, you give boxing a try.
And the Oakland Raiders have 33 guys on their roster making in excess of $1 million per season. And a lot of them are bums.
If you're 6'3, 245 lbs, why would you work at a sport where the average guy makes $50K (before paying a trainer) when you could play a sport where the average guy makes $1.9 million? Why waste your time?
And it seems that this is what people are thinking because American heavyweights are mostly ex-football and basketball players. Boxing is not their sport of choice; they are choosing it because a career in some other sport didn't pan out. You've completely sidestepped that fact.
But your point was that boxers made a lot of money in the 60s and that had more kids getting into boxing. My counter point is that heavyweight boxers also made a lot of money in the 70s, 80s and 90s yet kids born between say '69-'88 are no where to be found. It seems like we've been hearing about the lack of Anerican heavyweights for over 10 years now. So now that those fighters are no where to be found the argument switches to "heavyweights don't make much money" yet a lot of heavyweights DID make a lot of money as recently as the 90s. Holyfield, Tyson and Lewis probably made more in one of their fights against each other as the highest paid NFL player TODAY. By your money inspires participation logic - wouldn't that have inspired future heavyweights? Wouldn't Tyson being the highest paid athlete in the world inspire kids to be the next world champion? Would all the money Foreman made not inspire them? Holmes? Buster Douglas?
And why do you assume every 6'3/245 lb guy is a potential NFL player? I went to high school school with a lot of guys around that size and none are in the NFL. Did playing high school football for four months stop them from boxing? What about the billions of men not from the US? Do they also have a NFL or nothing mindset? Do other countries not have professional sports other than boxing?
You act as if the only potential heavyweight boxers for the last 10-15 years are football players that sucked and couldn't make a team. You know...a lot of people do play more than one sport in their youth.
But your point was that boxers made a lot of money in the 60s and that had more kids getting into boxing.
That was not my point. I didn't say that boxers were making oh so much money in the 60s. I said that football players today are making significantly more money than they were in the 60s, so the incentive to play football or basketball is 1,000 times stronger.
Even if we assume the average boxer in 1969 made $1,000 per year, that would still pale in comparison to the absolute difference between the average NFL/pro boxer salary today. The average NFL player makes $1.9 million compared to $24,000 for a boxer. There are 396 players in the NBA who are making more than $1 million this season. You maybe only have a dozen guys or so in all of professional boxing who sniff that kind of paper.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
So now that those fighters are no where to be found the argument switches to "heavyweights don't make much money" yet a lot of heavyweights DID make a lot of money as recently as the 90s.
The question isn't whether *some* boxers are highly compensated. The question is "how many?" I'm sure there's a truck driver somewhere pulling down seven figures but my guess is that he's the exception not the rule. The highly paid boxer is far more exceptional than the highly paid NFL/NBA/MLB player.
Today's football players make so much more than the average person that this discussion is not even worth having. Hall of Fame football players in the 60s had second jobs. Hall of Fame football players today have third and fourth houses.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
And why do you assume every 6'3/245 lb guy is a potential NFL player? I went to high school school with a lot of guys around that size and none are in the NFL. Did playing high school football for four months stop them from boxing? What about the billions of men not from the US? Do they also have a NFL or nothing mindset? Do other countries not have professional sports other than boxing?
Nobody said every big guy has NFL potential. That's a moronic argument. I said that big guys are funneled into either football or basketball and that the financial rewards in those sports make any consideration of boxing out of the question.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
You act as if the only potential heavyweight boxers for the last 10-15 years are football players that sucked and couldn't make a team. You know...a lot of people do play more than one sport in their youth.
That's what we've been getting. At least in the United States. Please tap into your extensive knowledge of boxing and tell us one HW American fighter you consider a true technician. Who has a fourth of the skill level of Andre Ward? We would all like to be enlightened.
Even in 1982, the average NFL salary was only $90,000 ($226K in 2016). Drug dealers in Harlem were making more than that in 1982. The average NBA salary in 1985 was $370K.
So the average player today makes 8.4 times what the average player made in 1982 (adjusting for inflation). So if you're trying to get your mama out of the hood and into that new house, are you going to pursue a NFL career or a boxing career? I guess the NFL is the only industry where wages have increased eightfold since the 80s with the same level of demand to enter the industry. That would be like the average physician salary jumping to $1.1 million with the interest level in med school remaining flat among American undergrads.
And it's not like American football was nearly as popular in the 60s as it is today. Football has a much bigger grip on the American imagination today than it did 40-50 years ago and much greater financial reward for the select few who can reach the highest plateaus of the sport. America still produces quality fighters, but they are mostly in the smaller weight classes since guys of Mayweather's stature have fewer choices in sports. But bigger guys are going to be selected for other sports and they have a greater incentive to stick with those sports. Then when your career as a football player hits a dead end, as it did for Seth Mitchell, you give boxing a try.
But there were great American heavyweights in the 80s and 90s too.
What about Larry Holmes? Ron Lyle? James Toney? Bernard Hopkins? Earnie Shavers? Lucas Browne? Ken Norton? Rocky Marchiano? James "Bonecrusher" Smith? Chris Algieri? Sonni Liston? Antonio Tarver? Clinton Woods? Anthony Mundine? Michael Grant? Hasim Rahman? Mike Weaver?
Let's face it - the champs are the champs unless somebody wants to beat them. Using the NFL as an excuse is just sour grapes.
But there were great American heavyweights in the 80s and 90s too.
What about Larry Holmes? Ron Lyle? James Toney? Bernard Hopkins? Earnie Shavers? Lucas Browne? Ken Norton? Rocky Marchiano? James "Bonecrusher" Smith? Chris Algieri? Sonni Liston? Antonio Tarver? Clinton Woods? Anthony Mundine? Michael Grant? Hasim Rahman? Mike Weaver?
Let's face it - the champs are the champs unless somebody wants to beat them. Using the NFL as an excuse is just sour grapes.
It's Marciano. Good lord, man. Just quit already. That's like disrespecting the great Michael Jordon.
And I didn't realize that Marciano grew up in an era of rapidly increasing NFL contracts. Or that Chris Algieri was a heavyweight.
All of the technicians are in the lower weight classes in 2016. The heavyweight division is full of ex-football players and wrestlers. It would be like someone winning MVP of the NBA after a failed soccer career and then you saying, "The skill level hasn't changed!"
That was not my point. I didn't say that boxers were making oh so much money in the 60s. I said that football players today are making significantly more money than they were in the 60s, so the incentive to play football or basketball is 1,000 times stronger.
Today is rather pointless to discuss if we are talking about fighters that are currently ~25-40 yrs old, right? Your average 35 yr old man who could've potentially been the heavyweight champion right now grew up in a time when plenty of boxers were making tons of money. Why were they not drawn to the sport if they could throw hands?
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Even if we assume the average boxer in 1969 made $1,000 per year, that would still pale in comparison to the absolute difference between the average NFL/pro boxer salary today. The average NFL player makes $1.9 million compared to $24,000 for a boxer. There are 396 players in the NBA who are making more than $1 million this season. You maybe only have a dozen guys or so in all of professional boxing who sniff that kind of paper.
If the average boxer made $1,000 - that would be A LOT less than the average NFL player. Who cares if the gap is now bigger. The point is that if the average football player in 1969 can make 15x more money - your logic would dictate that the VAST majority of potential heavyweights would grow up playing football. Perhaps we could say Ali isn't the greatest because the best boxer actually played football or baseball. Heck, maybe we can say the best in any sport aren't really the best because EVERYONE doesn't play their sport of choice.
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The question isn't whether *some* boxers are highly compensated. The question is "how many?" I'm sure there's a truck driver somewhere pulling down seven figures but my guess is that he's the exception not the rule. The highly paid boxer is far more exceptional than the highly paid NFL/NBA/MLB player.
I'm willing to bet the number of top tier earning heavyweights was no higher in the 60s than it was in the 90s. And you're talking about a country of 300 million people - if we can't produce a heavyweight champion perhaps we simply no longer have or produce the best fighters? Saying will still do have the best fighters, but they play football is a cop out. If every single football player was raised as a boxer you don't KNOW if any them could carry a Klitschko's spit bucket.
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Today's football players make so much more than the average person that this discussion is not even worth having. Hall of Fame football players in the 60s had second jobs. Hall of Fame football players today have third and fourth houses.
Show me some numbers. The average pro football player made far more than the average person. And forget a 2nd job - I'm willing to bet the average boxer in the 60s had a full time job that wasn't even related to boxing. By the 70s, baseball/football players were signing million dollar contracts yet the US was still producing world champion caliber boxers.
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Nobody said every big guy has NFL potential. That's a moronic argument. I said that big guys are funneled into either football or basketball and that the financial rewards in those sports make any consideration of boxing out of the question.
They've been funneled into those sports (and baseball) since about forever. Pick up a 1960s or 1970s yearbook and tell me how many guys you see on the football/basketball/baseball team - now show me how many are on the "boxing team".
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That's what we've been getting. At least in the United States. Please tap into your extensive knowledge of boxing and tell us one HW American fighter you consider a true technician. Who has a fourth of the skill level of Andre Ward? We would all like to be enlightened.
So I'm assuming ameteur boxing went extinct after the ball players starting earning millions in the 70s?
Last edited by eddiehaskell; 04-25-2016 at 10:05 PM..
It's Marciano. Good lord, man. Just quit already. That's like disrespecting the great Michael Jordon.
Does a typo really matter that much? Don't attempt a pivot to the "you don't know enough" line of reasoning.
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And I didn't realize that Marciano grew up in an era of rapidly increasing NFL contracts. Or that Chris Algieri was a heavyweight.
We have a freakin' bingo on our hands. Footballers DIDN'T get paid much, but boxing was very popular, right? More popular = better competition, right? So how did Marciano become one of the great heavyweights of all time despite getting a late start?
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All of the technicians are in the lower weight classes in 2016. The heavyweight division is full of ex-football players and wrestlers. It would be like someone winning MVP of the NBA after a failed soccer career and then you saying, "The skill level hasn't changed!"
No by the way it seems...more like failed football player who became failed boxers.
Today is rather pointless to discuss if we are talking about fighters that are currently ~25-40 yrs old, right? Your average 35 yr old man who could've potentially been the heavyweight champion right now grew up in a time when plenty of boxers were making tons of money. Why were they not drawn to the sport if they could throw hands?
Who were these "plenty" of boxers "making tons of money" in the 90s? That's like saying there are plenty of celebrity DJs "making tons of money" so it makes no sense why more people don't embark upon that career path.
Combat sports are by far the most high risk, low reward sports. Smaller guys tend to get into boxing earlier since someone Tim Bradley's size would have a difficult time making a HS junior varsity squad, little less earn a college scholarship to a major D-1 program. But the trend we're seeing today is the larger guys taking up boxing later in life after they've migrated over from other sports. As a result, skilled big guys have become a rarity on the American boxing scene.
American heavyweights are nowhere near as skilled as they were in the 70s, 80s and 90s. Nobody in this subforum would ever dispute that. The question is "Why?" The U.S. still produces budding talent in lower weight classes like Errol Spence, Jr., Karl Dargan, Keith Thurman, Danny Garcia, Julian Williams, etc. Those guys have been training since childhood and have actual boxing skills. So the question is why the skill gap is so large between the upper and lower divisions today when that wasn't so clearly the case at other points in American boxing history?
I guess your response would be "these guys are the best in the world." Yeah, they are the best in their weight division, which is not saying much. If there's any sport that we can say has witnessed a wholesale degradation in quality by all observable metrics, it's heavyweight boxing.
Does a typo really matter that much? Don't attempt a pivot to the "you don't know enough" line of reasoning.
I'm not sure if M-A-R-C-I-A-N-O has ever been spelled incorrectly in this sub. It would be like going into the football sub and telling everyone how wrong they were while simultaneously admitting you don't know much of anything about football.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
So how did Marciano become one of the great heavyweights of all time despite getting a late start?
Nobody said it was impossible to be good with a late start. You could start basketball late (Tim Duncan) and be an ATG. You could start tennis late (Mats Wilander/Marcelo Rios) and go on to be the No. 1 player on the ATP Tour. But by and large, the best athletes start in their respective sports at early ages, and that's the rule to which exceptions exist.
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell
No by the way it seems...more like failed football player who became failed boxers.
It's more like guys that don't develop any skills because they start too late. Deontay Wilder is a good example. He has talent, but his punching techinque is completely unrefined, he drops his right hand when he jabs, he doesn't cut the ring, etc. Those are very basic things that would have been addressed had he come up the amateur ranks. It's not simply that American heavweights aren't good in terms of enjoying success because some have had success. It's more that the quality of the boxing isn't as good.
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Good lord, man. Just quit already. That's like disrespecting the great Michael Jordon.
