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Location, Location, Location. Supply and demand and all that.
A big reason Cleveland-area homes are cheap is that the place is overbuilt. You have a city that's shrinking in population, and the greater metro area population is stagnant at best, not growing. Yet they keep building new subdivisions out in the suburban hinterlands.
That results in too much housing for too few people, which results in depressed prices, and leads to abandonment in the least desirable areas.
Cheap housing isn't necessarily a positive thing. Especially when so many Americans depend on building real estate equity for a large percentage of their net worth.
Interesting that Chicago home prices are down 30%+ as that city is way overbuilt as well. Average prices in the city as a whole are way down. Abandonment in the least desirable areas of Chicago is a big problem there.
Interesting that Chicago home prices are down 30%+ as that city is way overbuilt as well. Average prices in the city as a whole are way down. Abandonment in the least desirable areas of Chicago is a big problem there.
I'm pretty sure Chicago also declined quite rapidly in the last census, losing over 200,000 residents. In the loop you will experience some world class neighborhoods and lots of new, quality infill; but Chicago has more problems than I would want for Cleveland. I don't want to sound like another poster on this site that bashes Chicago, so I will not get into Chicago's obvious problems.
As far as the Canadians goes. I really like Canada. I had even contemplated moving there my first year in college. But to compare Canadian cities to American cities... interesting. No other place has cities that are quite as similar to American cities like Canada. My best friend lives in London. I am very familiar with southern Ontario. I will give Canadians the edge on transportation, but I have found Cleveland's transportation better than most Canadian cities (considering Cleveland has better transportation options than a majority of American cities). I was highly impressed with public transit in a select few Canadian cities, but it wasn't until I went to Australia and realized how much Canada was like the US... the car rules most of Canada. A quick trip on the 401 will make you realize this. I have never seen a freeway like that anywhere in the states. If that ran anywhere, even LA, I would be ashamed.
And yes, Toronto is booming. Toronto is one of the elite, world class cities. No other skyline in North America outside of New York can compete with it. I was in Toronto last November, and stood at the top of CN and looked out at the density that stretched for miles (kilometers ) up Younge and Bay streets. While Dubai has watched its cranes stall, Toronto watches steel rise. Now Cleveland, on a much smaller scale because it is a smaller city, is going through a boom as well. From residential properties whether they be new construction or rehabs are taking place over neighborhoods across the city. Office towers are being converted over to residential, a new convention center attached to a new medical mart because Cleveland is a medical powerhouse. Speaking of that, I know many Canadians come to Cleveland for medical procedures. Cleveland has big and small projects that are changing the city in plenty of new directions. Cleveland has world class museums, an amazing park system, diverse city neighborhoods, and home to a range of big companies.
And comparing Cleveland to Omaha?! Are you kidding? Cleveland is more along the ranks of Milwaukee or Baltimore. Omaha never had the prominence of the other three. Even though Omaha is no joke, it can't lay claim to many aspects older powerhouses bring to the table.
Yeah, I was thinking Toronto and Chicago would make a better comparison.
I'm not a Clevelander, but I've driven through Cleveland many times along the Ohio turnpike with very little desire/interest to veer off and check out Cleveland. (I have checked it out before, but it doesn't draw anyone to it outside of the Rock-N-Roll Museum or somewhere like that for one time).
Toronto or Chicago are certainly bigger draws.
Really, I wouldn't have guessed that one.
You judge the city by one museum on our lakefront? You judge the city by driving by on the Turnpike? You realize that isn't the city, though. Right?
The Cleveland Orchestra is in the top 10 in the world:
Gramophone’s complete list of Top 20 orchestras follows.
The Top 10
1) Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, Amsterdam
2) Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
3) Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra
4) London Symphony Orchestra
5) Chicago Symphony Orchestra
6) Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra
7) Cleveland Orchestra
8) Los Angeles Philharmonic
9) Budapest Festival Orchestra
10) Dresden Staatskapelle
The Next 10
11) Boston Symphony Orchestra
12) New York Philharmonic
13) San Francisco Symphony
14) Mariinsky Theater Orchestra
15) Russian National Orchestra
16) Leningrad Philharmonic
17) Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra
18) Metropolitan Opera Orchestra
19) Saito Kinen Symphony Orchestra
20) Czech Philharmonic
Cleveland is also home to the second largest performing arts district in the nation after New York. Playhouse Square has not only watched its amazing theaters bustle, but new restaurants, studios, art galleries and housing are opening up.
The Cleveland Museum of art is finishing up on a $350 million expansion. Consistently ranked as one of the best art museums in the nation. I personally can't wait to explore the new atrium, I see it almost everyday walking past Wade Lagoon.
Cleveland is home to the nation's largest law firm, a federal reserve, big banks, insurance companies, big development firms, world class healthcare in University Hospitals and the Cleveland Clinic. I can have the best Italian food for lunch, and head to Asiatown for dinner and shop at a Korean grocery store. Head over to the west side and take in the market and explore Ohio City. You want the big beautiful historic homes? Check out Cleveland's Edgewater neighborhood. You want the homes with a view? There are plenty of places on the west side that sit up on the bluffs with great lake and skyline views. Stay on the west side and explore one of the most densely populated areas west of the BosWash corridor in Lakewood. While you're at it, head over to the east side and take the rapid to Shaker Square. I could continue.
Oh, and that Turnpike you were on... ya it runs through the Cuyahoga Valley National Park, one of my favorite aspects of the Cleveland Metro park system. It was rated one of the top 10 most visited national parks last year.
10 Most Visited National Parks (2011)
National Park Recreational
Park Visits
1. Great Smoky Mountains National Park (TN, NC) 9,008,830
2. Grand Canyon National Park (AZ) 4,298,178
3. Yosemite National Park (CA) 3,951,393
4. Yellowstone National Park (WY, MT, ID) 3,394,326
5. Rocky Mountain National Park (CO) 3,176,941
6. Olympic National Park (WA) 2,966,502
7. Zion National Park (UT) 2,825,505
8. Grand Teton National Park (WY) 2,587,437
9. Acadia National Park (ME) 2,374,645
10. Cuyahoga Valley National Park (OH) 2,161,185
I really love TOR. Have I mentioned that? Even though it is a bit large for my tastes. Traffic is a monster there, but you forget all about that once you get downtown.
And I really like most Canadians. I think I did mention that. So in no way do I want to bash TOR or turn this into a CLE vs TOR thread...
because that really isn't what this thread is about.
We shouldn't let ONE Canadian get us all ticked off over his misconceptions.
As the thread title implies "what are the CLE stereotypes..." and we know most stereotypes aren't true...
Location: Cleveland, OH USA / formerly Chicago for 20 years
4,069 posts, read 7,324,206 times
Reputation: 3062
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrine
I had no idea housing was THAT expensive in TOR. It amazes me that anyone could think that's a GOOD THING. Did we learn nothing from the American housing bubble burst?
People from ALL economic backgrounds can afford to live here.
It always amazes me how naive and inexperienced some people can be. Housing is "that" expensive in pretty much all the truly global cities. Not just in North America, but all over the world as well (London, Paris, Hong Kong, etc.). I thought that was common knowledge. And the housing bubble has nothing to do with it. It's high demand that sends prices soaring. And the truly global cities always have people pouring into them to take advantage of the economic and other opportunities those cities provide. More competition for what's available puts upward pressure on prices.
Show me a cheap city and I'll show you a city that either has low demand or else has enough room to grow to keep up with rising demand.
If Cleveland ever does experience a lasting boom and a true economic comeback, and becomes a place people start moving to in droves, the cost of living will rise proportionately there as well. Be careful what you wish for.
BTW, people from "all" economic backgrounds do live in "all" cities, cheap or expensive. And even in "cheap" Cleveland, there are many people living there who apparently can't even afford the low prices for decent housing in decent neighborhoods, and are making do with terrible living conditions.
Location: Cleveland, OH USA / formerly Chicago for 20 years
4,069 posts, read 7,324,206 times
Reputation: 3062
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamms
Interesting that Chicago home prices are down 30%+ as that city is way overbuilt as well. Average prices in the city as a whole are way down. Abandonment in the least desirable areas of Chicago is a big problem there.
Sigh. I knew it was only a matter of time.
Chicago home prices are down for the same reason they're down everywhere else in America -- too much speculation and overbuilding due to the housing bubble in the 2000s that finally burst. That result was as predictable as night following day to anyone who had any sense. Thank the Fed and its "easy money" policy and interest rate manipulation for that one. When I saw buyers with $50K incomes being told they could afford a $500K mortgage, and borrowers being encouraged to lie about their incomes, I knew something had to give sooner or later. The only thing that surprised me was that the bubble went on for as long as it did.
Even so, the price declines are not distributed evenly here. Condo prices in my 40-year-old highrise have crashed 30 to 40 percent from what they were five years ago, but prices in some newer midrise construction in my part of town have held up remarkably well.
The rental market in Chicago is hot, however. Rental prices are higher than ever, and any halfway decent rentals in desirable parts of town are being snatched up pretty quickly. Often you'd better come prepared to offer higher than the asking price as there are now bidding wars for apartments, especially in the downtown area -- a phenomenon that is an old story in NYC and San Francisco, but something I never thought I'd see here.
Chicago has problems, sure, but it's still a global city and vast parts of town are healthy and thriving, stretching well beyond the Loop. You won't see Chicago housing prices crash to Cleveland levels anytime soon, at least not in any part of town worth living in.
Many parts of the Cleveland area saw hefty price declines as well. Which I found shocking since during the bubble, prices never rose all that high to begin with.
But keep bashing Chicago if it makes you feel better.
Location: Cleveland, OH USA / formerly Chicago for 20 years
4,069 posts, read 7,324,206 times
Reputation: 3062
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrine
I really love TOR. Have I mentioned that? Even though it is a bit large for my tastes. Traffic is a monster there, but you forget all about that once you get downtown.
And I really like most Canadians. I think I did mention that. So in no way do I want to bash TOR or turn this into a CLE vs TOR thread...
because that really isn't what this thread is about.
We shouldn't let ONE Canadian get us all ticked off over his misconceptions.
As the thread title implies "what are the CLE stereotypes..." and we know most stereotypes aren't true...
Keep in mind that 50 or 60 years ago, when Cleveland was at its peak, Toronto wasn't anywhere near as impressive as it is now. Perhaps the two cities were more comparable once upon a time. But they have gone in different directions over the years.
Chicago home prices are down for the same reason they're down everywhere else in America -- too much speculation and overbuilding due to the housing bubble in the 2000s that finally burst. That result was as predictable as night following day to anyone who had any sense. Thank the Fed and its "easy money" policy and interest rate manipulation for that one. When I saw buyers with $50K incomes being told they could afford a $500K mortgage, and borrowers being encouraged to lie about their incomes, I knew something had to give sooner or later. The only thing that surprised me was that the bubble went on for as long as it did.
Even so, the price declines are not distributed evenly here. Condo prices in my 40-year-old highrise have crashed 30 to 40 percent from what they were five years ago, but prices in some newer midrise construction in my part of town have held up remarkably well.
The rental market in Chicago is hot, however. Rental prices are higher than ever, and any halfway decent rentals in desirable parts of town are being snatched up pretty quickly. Often you'd better come prepared to offer higher than the asking price as there are now bidding wars for apartments, especially in the downtown area -- a phenomenon that is an old story in NYC and San Francisco, but something I never thought I'd see here.
Chicago has problems, sure, but it's still a global city and vast parts of town are healthy and thriving, stretching well beyond the Loop. You won't see Chicago housing prices crash to Cleveland levels anytime soon, at least not in any part of town worth living in.
Many parts of the Cleveland area saw hefty price declines as well. Which I found shocking since during the bubble, prices never rose all that high to begin with.
But keep bashing Chicago if it makes you feel better.
Actually, the average in both cities, is comparable. Add in all those south side homes selling for $1,000 and you will see a real drop in the average price. Cleveland, like Chicago, had large amounts of subprime lending. It's not Chicago-bashing, just the facts. I know if there are any ''negative'' facts about Chicago, it is bashing.
Chicago home prices are down for the same reason they're down everywhere else in America -- too much speculation and overbuilding due to the housing bubble in the 2000s that finally burst. That result was as predictable as night following day to anyone who had any sense. Thank the Fed and its "easy money" policy and interest rate manipulation for that one. When I saw buyers with $50K incomes being told they could afford a $500K mortgage, and borrowers being encouraged to lie about their incomes, I knew something had to give sooner or later. The only thing that surprised me was that the bubble went on for as long as it did.
Even so, the price declines are not distributed evenly here. Condo prices in my 40-year-old highrise have crashed 30 to 40 percent from what they were five years ago, but prices in some newer midrise construction in my part of town have held up remarkably well.
The rental market in Chicago is hot, however. Rental prices are higher than ever, and any halfway decent rentals in desirable parts of town are being snatched up pretty quickly. Often you'd better come prepared to offer higher than the asking price as there are now bidding wars for apartments, especially in the downtown area -- a phenomenon that is an old story in NYC and San Francisco, but something I never thought I'd see here.
Chicago has problems, sure, but it's still a global city and vast parts of town are healthy and thriving, stretching well beyond the Loop. You won't see Chicago housing prices crash to Cleveland levels anytime soon, at least not in any part of town worth living in.
Many parts of the Cleveland area saw hefty price declines as well. Which I found shocking since during the bubble, prices never rose all that high to begin with.
But keep bashing Chicago if it makes you feel better.
Who's bashing Chicago? If anyone were bashing any city, then it would be the ones putting down Cleveland. I did not go into Chicago's murder rate, economy, financial situation, corruption, etc. I could have, but I refrained. Sorry, Chicago is too far from perfect, and I certainly don't need to sugarcoat things to make my point better.
But keep bashing Chicago if it makes you feel better.
Hahaha all he did was point out that Cleveland and Chicago have pretty similar basic problems, that you brought up. So if that's Chicago bashing, you're Cleveland bashing! I personally prefer to look at it as facts and interpretations of facts.
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) up Younge and Bay streets. While Dubai has watched its cranes stall, Toronto watches steel rise. Now Cleveland, on a much smaller scale because it is a smaller city, is going through a boom as well. From residential properties whether they be new construction or rehabs are taking place over neighborhoods across the city. Office towers are being converted over to residential, a new convention center attached to a new medical mart because Cleveland is a medical powerhouse. Speaking of that, I know many Canadians come to Cleveland for medical procedures. Cleveland has big and small projects that are changing the city in plenty of new directions. Cleveland has world class museums, an amazing park system, diverse city neighborhoods, and home to a range of big companies.
