Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Well, again, apartment/condo dwellers and townhomes that have only on-street parking make up about 1/3rd of car owners. So out of 280 million cars, that leaves 186 million cars that have a path to home charging. We sold 1 million EVs last year. I think that in the decades it'd take to sell EVs to those with a path to home charging NOW, the plight of the other third will be solved.
Chicago thread. See thread title re: "Chicago winter".
There are ways to maximize the drive range of both EV's and ICE automobiles. There are numerous factors involved, including the way one drives. However, Ev's can lose an average 20% to 50% drive range during the winter(depending on numerous factors). ICE automobiles do lose around 20% range or more in some cases during very cold winters like the ones I experience, but keep in mind that to keep an ICE automobile's cabin, seats, steering wheel, and so on toasty hot, the heat that warms the cabin is from waste heat from the engine. The power for the resistive heat (seats, and so on), is supplied by the alternator. Numerous articles relating to how to maximize drive ranges for EV's and ICE automobiles have been published.
One can also gather pertinent data about range loss/gain from drivers at the automobile (pick your brand & model) user forums. A lot of Chevy Bolt drivers post their findings in Reddit, but there are several Bolt forums, as well as Tesla user forums.
CR = 20-40% loss
KBB = 3-35%
CNN = 25%
NBC = 41% (temperatures 20º F to 0º)
According to data recently presented by battery health startup Recurrent Auto, which tested a pool of over 10,000 cars comprised of the 18 most popular electric models in the US, EVs retained 70.3 percent of their range in freezing temperatures.
This should be an average of 30% loss.
These are range loses in ambient temperatures from 20º to 0º F. By the way, it was 0º F in Fairbanks this afternoon, and I saw two Cybertrucks (one after the other), probably being "cold weather tested." It has not been very cold like previous winters, even 25º F one day this week while you were having a cold front in the 'lower-48 states", but the forecast calls for a cold front moving in a day or two from now that could bring from -25º to -45º F. I hope it won't happen, of course
If you are truly interested in gaining knowledge on EVs, EV infrastructure and the industry then you know Kyle Conner and Out of Spec, or you will once you start trying to learn. If you just like to bicker on forums about EVs then you probably don't and it's not my job provide you credentials. He flew to Chicago to cover this story on there ground, which tells you how deep he is in the game. His summary cound be found at 29 minutes.
Kyle and Out of Spec are EV enthusiast who are also some of the most critical folks you will found on the state of EV infrastructure. He hass access to the CEOs all the way down to the engineers.
Yoski, in your post #25, you did not say anything about the credentials of the people in your Youtube post, nor their conclusions. Youtube is not scholarly peer-reviewed academic journal; it is the home of funny cat videos and political rants devoid of data or logical thinking.
There is no way to know in advance if someone - you in this case - says "Some good discussion here on this Chicago drama and some background on what caused it " if it is worth watching.
If, instead, you had posted a link to, say, SAE International Journal of Electrified Vehicles, then immediately all would know it is a reputable source of information.
Here is another cold-weather video from this week, from another objective source, TFL-EV. They fully charged their Tesla Model 3 Performance trim EV in a warm garage, then parked it outside by the office overnight on a cold night, which got down to -3F.
Then the next morning, they did a range test in it, on a mostly highway route, in weather that was still around 0F. The car was also wearing Michelin Cross Climate 2 all-weather tires, which will give up a little range, but those are the tires you'd want in the Colorado winter, so this is a real-world kind of conditions test.
Tommy ran the heat when he drove to stay comfortable at 0F (again, as anyone would do under normal conditions), and he noted there was a little snow on the road still and that might increase rolling resistance a bit too. Given the serious cold conditions, he didn't run the battery down to zero, but he pulled into a charging station with 2% battery left - and he had driven 158 miles at that point. So they lost nearly 50% of rated range.
He did precondition the battery as they approached the charging station at trip's end, and the charger actually worked fine in the frigid 0F weather, delivering a maximum near 230kW from a 250kW charger.
The video title and screen shot are a little dramatic, since they were never stranded - a little clickbait there I guess. They did indeed lose quite a lot of range, but on this trip, using battery preconditioning prior to DC-fast charging outdoors at 0F, charging was fine.
Yoski, in your post #25, you did not say anything about the credentials of the people in your Youtube post, nor their conclusions. Youtube is not scholarly peer-reviewed academic journal; it is the home of funny cat videos and political rants devoid of data or logical thinking.
There is no way to know in advance if someone - you in this case - says "Some good discussion here on this Chicago drama and some background on what caused it " if it is worth watching.
If, instead, you had posted a link to, say, SAE International Journal of Electrified Vehicles, then immediately all would know it is a reputable source of information.
Are you going to hold anti-EV posts to this same standard? Many EV-haters (1) don't own EVs so they're not talking from experience and (2) they don't post any citation to where their info is coming from in their post, and (3) if they do post a citation, it's from someone who knows nothing about EVs and/or also comments on politics and has heavy bias you can see from a mile away. If you're going to hold anyone who's *not* attacking EVs to not saying anything unless they can back it with a citation to a peer-reviewed engineering journal, then you should also do that with those who attack EVs.
Yoski, in your post #25, you did not say anything about the credentials of the people in your Youtube post, nor their conclusions. Youtube is not scholarly peer-reviewed academic journal; it is the home of funny cat videos and political rants devoid of data or logical thinking.
There is no way to know in advance if someone - you in this case - says "Some good discussion here on this Chicago drama and some background on what caused it " if it is worth watching.
If, instead, you had posted a link to, say, SAE International Journal of Electrified Vehicles, then immediately all would know it is a reputable source of information.
Honestly if you didn't feel its worth watching because I didn't provide information on the reputation of the source then it was your prerogative not to watch it. Honestly I don't need to be convinced to watch a short Youtube video someone here provides. If it interest me I will watch and and draw my own conclusions. If what is presented on said channel strikes me as being well-informed and well presented then I will continue to watch content from the channel, and in this case listen to related podcast. This often leads me to additional resources for reliable information. As an example, Out of Spec led me to State of Charge, which to me is one of the best resources for information on home chargers. It's my job to research the background and credentials of the content provider, not to have everything handed to me.
To me it is a sign of a level of intellectual laziness to need to be convinced to receive new information that could better inform your opinion or position. Again it may be more of an indication that someone who needs that is not necessarily here to engage to be better informed through discussion, but rather here to engage for the sake of arguing opinions and not really wanting to be informed.
Here is another cold-weather video from this week, from another objective source, TFL-EV. They fully charged their Tesla Model 3 Performance trim EV in a warm garage, then parked it outside by the office overnight on a cold night, which got down to -3F.
Then the next morning, they did a range test in it, on a mostly highway route, in weather that was still around 0F. The car was also wearing Michelin Cross Climate 2 all-weather tires, which will give up a little range, but those are the tires you'd want in the Colorado winter, so this is a real-world kind of conditions test.
Tommy ran the heat when he drove to stay comfortable at 0F (again, as anyone would do under normal conditions), and he noted there was a little snow on the road still and that might increase rolling resistance a bit too. Given the serious cold conditions, he didn't run the battery down to zero, but he pulled into a charging station with 2% battery left - and he had driven 158 miles at that point. So they lost nearly 50% of rated range.
He did precondition the battery as they approached the charging station at trip's end, and the charger actually worked fine in the frigid 0F weather, delivering a maximum near 230kW from a 250kW charger.
The video title and screen shot are a little dramatic, since they were never stranded - a little clickbait there I guess. They did indeed lose quite a lot of range, but on this trip, using battery preconditioning prior to DC-fast charging outdoors at 0F, charging was fine.
OutdoorLover, you are correct in what you explained about the video. While I don't have an EV, I do gather as much data about EV technology as I can, specially because I spent a few years working with multi-cell aircraft batteries and understand how batteries perform depending on the battery's internal temperatures.
There is an European EV-up to at least a 2023 model-that does not incorporate the option to preheat the battery before arriving to a charging station. It means that if this vehicle's battery becomes too cold when arriving to a charge station, there is no way for it to accept a rapid charge. It would take a few hours to charge instead of less than 45 minutes or even an hour. Tesla EV's can preheat the battery before arriving to the scheduled charging station. In this case the battery is sufficiently warm for it to accept rapid charge.
Kyle sponsors another video where the host (s) drives two of the European models I mention above to charging stations. One of the drivers drives an EV with a nearly discharged and cold battery, and the other driver performs "Yo-Yo" driving on the other EV to allow the cold and nearly discharged battery to warm-up by the time he arrives at the charging station. The EV with the now warm battery is charged under one hour, while the one that was not Yo-Yo driven (the one with a cold battery) takes over 1-1/2 hour or longer to charge.
That said, the EV host in the video above was conducting a test that ordinarily would not happen. For example as long as the EV is parked outdoors and plugged to a charging station that supplies enough power to both precondition and charge the battery, plus warm the cabin, the EV would not lose as much drive range as shown in the video. The problem is that if you want to keep the battery warm along a long drive, then some of the power you need to drive the motor is being used to warm the battery, which in turn reduces the drive range. As far as I understand, the feature to preheat the battery before arriving to a charge station (the Tesla one), is done when the driver schedules the charging station ahead on the road.
OutdoorLover, you are correct in what you explained about the video. While I don't have an EV, I do gather as much data about EV technology as I can, specially because I spent a few years working with multi-cell aircraft batteries and understand how batteries perform depending on the battery's internal temperatures.
There is an European EV-up to at least a 2023 model-that does not incorporate the option to preheat the battery before arriving to a charging station. It means that if this vehicle's battery becomes too cold when arriving to a charge station, there is no way for it to accept a rapid charge. It would take a few hours to charge instead of less than 45 minutes or even an hour. Tesla EV's can preheat the battery before arriving to the scheduled charging station. In this case the battery is sufficiently warm for it to accept rapid charge.
Kyle sponsors another video where the host (s) drives two of the European models I mention above to charging stations. One of the drivers drives an EV with a nearly discharged and cold battery, and the other driver performs "Yo-Yo" driving on the other EV to allow the cold and nearly discharged battery to warm-up by the time he arrives at the charging station. The EV with the now warm battery is charged under one hour, while the one that was not Yo-Yo driven (the one with a cold battery) takes over 1-1/2 hour or longer to charge.
That said, the EV host in the video above was conducting a test that ordinarily would not happen. For example as long as the EV is parked outdoors and plugged to a charging station that supplies enough power to both precondition and charge the battery, plus warm the cabin, the EV would not lose as much drive range as shown in the video. The problem is that if you want to keep the battery warm along a long drive, then some of the power you need to drive the motor is being used to warm the battery, which in turn reduces the drive range. As far as I understand, the feature to preheat the battery before arriving to a charge station (the Tesla one), is done when the driver schedules the charging station ahead on the road.
Hi Ray - agree with everything you say, including that if you have a Level 2 charger at home and the car is at home, you don't need to go through this scenario. I do think there are real world scenarios for this test - for example you are traveling and park overnight at any kind of lodging without an available "destination charger", or you park at the airport and can't leave it on the charger for your whole trip, for example...
Here's a guy in Canada near Strathmore, AB - same latitude as Calgary. He charges his Model Y AWD at -31F at a Tesla DC fast charger, and then at a Flo CCS DC fast charger, and, they both work fine for him.
The more that I see, the more that I think that while one does have other things to look out for in cold weather, and there may have been some equipment issues too, the Chicago debacle was likely primarily a case of user errors... and then once you have the charging bays clogged up with vehicles whose owners screwed up, and either the car is dead there or the owner refuses to accept defeat and move it, that endangers the other cars who are waiting endlessly in that frigid cold in vain, trying to access the life giving charger, and you could get this domino effect...
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
