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And that's insulting, to assume that Libertarians are racist (by saying an anti-racist one is fascinating). I'm a Libertarian. All that is meant by states rights is that this country was not set up as a large, centralized government and that due to the 9th and 10th amendments, anything not enumerated in the federal Constitution as an obligation of the federal government should be remanded to the states, and if not to the states, to the people.
Law-abiding Libertarians can hardly help if there are jerks out there who take it to extremes. One bad apple doesn't spoil the whole bunch, right?
I also consider myself a Libertarian. It'd be damn nice if we would ever get a decent political candidate.
Oh, that totally reminded me of situation I had.
I had a patient who completely missed all recommendations, clearly explained to her, before her custom brace was fabricated. CLEARLY explained. I have been doing this for 26 years, I learned from School of Hard Knocks to make sure they understand, what shoe to wear for fitting and how not to allow your leg swell, or brace will not fit.
So she shows up without compression stocking on and in skin tight one of them skinny slipper type things on her feet..
To what, I pointed out, that I can't fit her as is because of the swollen leg and wrong shoe.
To what she tells me I never told her about this.
M'am, sorry, I always do..
No, you never did, and I can tell, she starts getting hot.
So here was my stupidity. I said, M'am, please, let's calm down and have intelligent conversation.
For the next 15 minutes, I was yelled at. I had to listen to entire gamut of accusations, how I consider her lower kind, disrespect her and so on. My 2 office girls got scared craplees, it was so bad. How she didn't get into slavery thing, I am only wondering. I had her finger waved in front of my face in best cultural traditions.
That's to your " I'm a reasonable debater who uses rational thinking"
Good luck.
Now my patients get offended because I, literally, do not talk to them. Can't say a word without someone getting offended over whatever they choose to get offended over. And then, you have to hear from your employer "because it's bad for business".
People figured it very fast that, they can turn your life into misery very easily. And, you WILL bow to them, as you want your job, at least or, not dealing with lawyers, at worst. So they will turn you into door mat, just because they can. And it will be YOUR job to prove, after years of torment, that you had nothing bad done.
Excellent points and yes, your story is a very good analogy. This is basically why I quit debating the hot-button issues years ago. It's hard to debate with 3rd graders who want their way and no other way, and especially the spoiled ones who get coddled constantly. And don't they think they know it all! I had more peace after my years of political debates and now I approach them differently - it is not my intention to change minds, because that seems to be "their" M/O. You know, for us people with a few more years and leadership under our belt, we actually SEE the realities and build wisdom with experiences.
Oh, that totally reminded me of situation I had.
I had a patient who completely missed all recommendations, clearly explained to her, before her custom brace was fabricated. CLEARLY explained. I have been doing this for 26 years, I learned from School of Hard Knocks to make sure they understand, what shoe to wear for fitting and how not to allow your leg swell, or brace will not fit.
So she shows up without compression stocking on and in skin tight one of them skinny slipper type things on her feet..
To what, I pointed out, that I can't fit her as is because of the swollen leg and wrong shoe.
To what she tells me I never told her about this.
M'am, sorry, I always do..
No, you never did, and I can tell, she starts getting hot.
So here was my stupidity. I said, M'am, please, let's calm down and have intelligent conversation.
For the next 15 minutes, I was yelled at. I had to listen to entire gamut of accusations, how I consider her lower kind, disrespect her and so on. My 2 office girls got scared craplees, it was so bad. How she didn't get into slavery thing, I am only wondering. I had her finger waved in front of my face in best cultural traditions.
That's to your " I'm a reasonable debater who uses rational thinking"
Good luck.
Now my patients get offended because I, literally, do not talk to them. Can't say a word without someone getting offended over whatever they choose to get offended over. And then, you have to hear from your employer "because it's bad for business".
People figured it very fast that, they can turn your life into misery very easily. And, you WILL bow to them, as you want your job, at least or, not dealing with lawyers, at worst. So they will turn you into door mat, just because they can. And it will be YOUR job to prove, after years of torment, that you had nothing bad done.
That has nothing to do with this thread, which is about moral autonomy being lost. The OP is trying to vilify people who respond to racist/sexist/homophobic comments, despite trying to be cloaked in great debate.
Your story is a wack job patient. Everyone has to deal with wacky people in work situations and keep their mouths shut.
We should always stand for justice - this is truth! But should we bully others until they agree with us on other issues? This is a very popular tactic being used today. Say something that suits their agenda, and you're safe. This has been done before in history - and had dire consequences eventually.
This stuff does go overboard but if you are a public figure you have to use good judgement. If you are going to say, tweet or do something that may cause blow-back don't do it. Like it or not you represent the entity you work for or own 24/7.
Its pretty much impossible to stop people from having a negative reaction to what someone says, tweets or does if its something a group of people find objectionable even if its faux objection. And since that goal post is always on the move you can get nailed for something you said 5 or 10 years ago. That may not be fair but life is not fair.
Of course; I never implied that speech doesn't have consequences. But those consequences, for a CEO for example, should only be meted out by a company's board. The general public should not have, in my opinion, so much power as to force a private, non-governmental company/organization to terminate someone's employment because of his/her personal opinions. Now, if the company wants to do that themselves, have at it. But they shouldn't be bullied into doing so by the public. You're taking away someone's livelihood, and to what end? Did the religious beliefs of Chick-Fil-A's founder impact the product? No. So why does it matter?
I think the problem is "degree".
As a retired principal, I was fortunate to have never been put in a position where one of the teachers said something so egregious that they should have been terminated. But it certainly could have happened. The question is where do you draw the line.
And I don't think it's a different proposition in a privately owned business. Freedom of speech is a given, but as you say, that doesn't mean there aren't consequences. If you're running a business an one of your salesmen in espousing Nazism or the KKK on public websites...that could definitely affect your business.
Right now the pendulum has swung a bit too far. But people do need to be held responsible for what they say and do in public. The question is, when it's inappropriate, what consequence is reasonable?
Thank you for your relevant feedback, Hitler. Make needed changes to personal opinion or suffer the consequences?
It seems as though a lot of you have not exactly read through this thread, and have labelled me a racist already, without knowing me or my stance on any subject. You are applying my post to the issues that evoke emotions in you, and are arguing with a ghost. I'm actually a Libertarian in political views, and abhor anyone who is racist against any ethnicity, as I have a mixed son. I think you angry, assuming posters are proving a lot of my point and I appreciate the living examples.
Since you indicate that there are quite a few of us who are seeing you as a racist, perhaps the wise thing to do would be for you to go back through your posts and think about why some of us have may have come to that conclusion.
But you seem offended that we may think that way, while you're calling me Hitler.
Sure, hate speech often comes with consequences. Voicing personal opinions that may point out facts but not be popular however, is where this conversation was centered. This post *may* be slightly over your head, since it is a philosophical discussion regarding personal, moral autonomy and how it relates to culture in our country. It was simply an inquisition into the subject and has apparently touched a nerve with people who get emotional about what someone else thinks or says. That's interesting in that it does expose perhaps one of the initiators of the anger/disgust at differing opinions or viewpoints. And the name calling is the icing on the cake.
And no, sorry to disappoint you. I am not "afraid" or holding back a big, racist rant so that you can start berating me. This was just a way to gauge people's thoughts on the subject and get differing viewpoints.
The problem is that you want to talk about "moral autonomy" while living within a non-autonomous culture.
And that's insulting, to assume that Libertarians are racist (by saying an anti-racist one is fascinating). I'm a Libertarian. All that is meant by states rights is that this country was not set up as a large, centralized government and that due to the 9th and 10th amendments, anything not enumerated in the federal Constitution as an obligation of the federal government should be remanded to the states, and if not to the states, to the people.
Law-abiding Libertarians can hardly help if there are jerks out there who take it to extremes. One bad apple doesn't spoil the whole bunch, right?
You're ignoring the history of "state's rights". Personally, I think human rights should trump (hate using that word) state's rights. As Hubert Humphrey said way back in 1948: "My friends, to those who say that we are rushing this issue of civil rights, I say to them we are 172 years late. To those who say that this civil-rights program is an infringement on states’ rights, I say this: The time has arrived in America for the Democratic Party to get out of the shadow of states' rights and to walk forthrightly into the bright sunshine of human rights. People -- human beings -- this is the issue of the 20th century. People of all kinds -- all sorts of people -- and these people are looking to America for leadership, and they’re looking to America for precept and example."
I agree with much of what you said except that this may be the IDEAL but how it is being carried out it is very ridiculous and often extreme. Not to mention hypocritical!
- Why does Paw Patrol need to be cancelled because it has a friendly police dog?
- Why should people boycott Dominos pizza because they said thank you for compliment on their pizza made by the White House press secretary years before anyone knew who she was or that she would someday work for Trump?
- Why should people be fired for things they said YEARS ago?
- Why should movies like Gone with the Wind be banned or shows like COPS? Are people truly so sensitive and incapable of realizing that some things are a product of their time? Are we going to sterilize and homogonyze everything? Who gets to be the gatekeeper?
- Why does a mob get to decide by threat of violence or force, what statues the rest of us are allowed to have?
- Why do we need to rename everything, as if we can erase history?
- Why do we hypocritically give a PASS to one of the most vulgar and offensive forms of expression there is: Rap music? How come if we are so civilized and so considerate, I can go out in a public place and have to be subjected to some of the most vile, disgusting language being shouted over someone's loudspeaker, with f-bombs, derogatory language towards women and glorification of violence and crime? I might be out with my young kids who soak everything up like a sponge! I have even heard some of the worst of this played on speakers in public restaurants.
Think about THAT for a moment! We live in a society that says Paw Patrol should be canceled but hardcore gangster rap is just fine.
1. Perhaps at this time, human civil rights is a more important focus than Paw Patrol.
2. I thought Americans were free to purchase from whatever businesses they wish.
3. I do agree that things long past should be overlooked IF the person has changed those attitudes.
4. "Gone With The Wind" (my favorite movie, which I watched just last night) has not been banned. One cable network has TEMPORARILY removed it from broadcast, just as films are cycled on cable channels all the time. You need to get the story straight.
5. The statues are a problem. On the one hand, some of them do promote hero-worship or traitors to this nation and racists. On the other hand, those people are part of our history. I would like to see statues of people like Lee put in Civil War battlefield parks WITH a summary of their viewpoints on the issue of slavery, so as to provide context. But if you're a Black guy and every day you have to walk past statues of Confederate leaders who glorified slavery, then it ought to be understandable why you might be offended.
6. In terms of renaming things, why not. If there are more appropriate names for things that relate more to our lives today, why not rename? Particularly in regard to AMERICAN military bases...why exactly would we name them after traitors to our country?
7. Yes, much rap music is disgusting. So is the language used by many rednecks.
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