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I am struggling to find the logic in this post, but there is none. It baffles the mind.
I have been at work most of the day since posting and I will clarify with this reply.
Police have used tasers in the past 15 years as a "safer" alternative to shooting. Tasers prevent the use of "deadly force" in many cases. I use quotations for both because tasers aren't 100% safe. Tasing someone with heart issues might cause them to go into cardiac arrest for instance. What my premise is, if it is "safe" then why is it "deadly force" outside of a police officer holding it? For the "well you can take their gun excuse," I can punch a cop in the nose, shattering it and take their gun too or I can kick a cop in the groin and take their gun as well. Neither of those actions themselves are "deadly force" in it of itself.
Tasing someone cannot be both safe and deadly. It is one or the other, no shade of grey.
No it's not either/or, and If 100% safety is the standard, then NO method of subduing non-compliant detainees would be permissible.
The measure shouldn't be "is it 100% safe" but rather "is it safer and/or more effective than alternative methods." What is your preferred alternative? A nightstick beating?
The current purpose of the police is to enforce laws. The normal tool of this paradigm is a weapon. Police are trained to use this weapon. The Police have a legitimate requirement to restrain/incapacitate people so that they do not harm themselves, the police, or other people. However, when your main weapon is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
When the police are called, it is usually because someone is upset about some aspect of an individual's behavior. When an individual is drunk or unruly, (or it is a domestic issue) the situation can really escalate. The police will kill someone they perceive as a threat. Sometimes, they kill people who are not a threat.
Suppose we have another type of organization to respond to low to mid level calls for help? This way, bums will not be killed for urinating in the bushes, and couples can resolve domestic issues without getting shot. I see a citizens corps (CITVOLS) composed of unarmed volunteers (teachers, doctors, who are paid for their services, or who get property/state tax breaks. They will have a different kind of uniform, and citizens will decide the scope of their duties prior to establishing the group. The important thing is that they are of the community.
The police and state and local organizations need to be part of the national discourse on solving the issue of the role of the police, and part of the solution. A framework to protect and help the people should be the outcome of this effort. A Police Force is still relevant, but it is only one option -part of the solution.
This is a completely IGNORANT statement. It has been proven for many years that domestic violence calls are the MOST DANGEROUS ones that police officers face. Forty percent of cops who are killed in the line of duty were responding to or were related to domestic violence calls. Do you know how dangerous and prevalent domestic violence is? You're assuming that people who are committing domestic violence are going to be able to be reasoned with. These are people who have no problem beating on the people they claim to love. Some will listen to reason, of course, and will be able to be "talked down". The others will not, period.
Do you actually believe that cops shouldn't be responding to domestic violence calls? Sending out an UNARMED volunteer is literally laughable. It is baffling to me that some people assume that domestic violence can be de-escalated by unarmed counselors showing up and trying to "talk" the aggressor down off the violent ledge they are perched upon.
You know where counselors and those volunteers/paid citizens you talk about should be? In the schools where kids can learn how to not only identify domestic violence, but how to better control their anger and feelings so they don't grow up and commit partner violence. Try to prevent domestic violence in the first damn place and give more resources to schools and certain public services so kids can learn how to handle themselves better.
If you see your neighbor or family member getting the s%^t beaten out them by a partner, who do you think is going to be the best person to really de-escalate the situation? A cop with a gun/taser or a counselor with a clipboard? Cops are trained to take suspects down if need be. Counselors are trained to make a person feel better. Domestic violence situations are just that- VIOLENT. Do not delude yourselves to think that they are just simple disputes that involve slaps between partners having a bad day. They aren't.
I'd also like to say something about tasers. I have personally seen a person get "tased" and let me tell you: it is NOT something you want to happen. If a police officer gets tased with a his/her own taser that officer is rendered completely vulnerable. All this "let's just talk and hold hands" sentiment on how cops should be dealing with criminals is just that- sentiment, not reality.
This is a completely IGNORANT statement. It has been proven for many years that domestic violence calls are the MOST DANGEROUS ones that police officers face. Forty percent of cops who are killed in the line of duty were responding to or were related to domestic violence calls. Do you know how dangerous and prevalent domestic violence is? You're assuming that people who are committing domestic violence are going to be able to be reasoned with. These are people who have no problem beating on the people they claim to love. Some will listen to reason, of course, and will be able to be "talked down". The others will not, period.
Do you actually believe that cops shouldn't be responding to domestic violence calls? Sending out an UNARMED volunteer is literally laughable. It is baffling to me that some people assume that domestic violence can be de-escalated by unarmed counselors showing up and trying to "talk" the aggressor down off the violent ledge they are perched upon.
You know where counselors and those volunteers/paid citizens you talk about should be? In the schools where kids can learn how to not only identify domestic violence, but how to better control their anger and feelings so they don't grow up and commit partner violence. Try to prevent domestic violence in the first damn place and give more resources to schools and certain public services so kids can learn how to handle themselves better.
If you see your neighbor or family member getting the s%^t beaten out them by a partner, who do you think is going to be the best person to really de-escalate the situation? A cop with a gun/taser or a counselor with a clipboard? Cops are trained to take suspects down if need be. Counselors are trained to make a person feel better. Domestic violence situations are just that- VIOLENT. Do not delude yourselves to think that they are just simple disputes that involve slaps between partners having a bad day. They aren't.
I'd also like to say something about tasers. I have personally seen a person get "tased" and let me tell you: it is NOT something you want to happen. If a police officer gets tased with a his/her own taser that officer is rendered completely vulnerable. All this "let's just talk and hold hands" sentiment on how cops should be dealing with criminals is just that- sentiment, not reality.
Are cops really the best 'professionals' we can send to domestic violence calls though? Thats very strange, considering it is 2020 now!
All police are going to do is determine if someone broke any laws and arrest that person, cops are not trained social workers or psychologists, they could be walking into a domestic violence call that involves 2 paranoid schizophrenics!!! Are police officers really the best people to send to deal with this? Not in my opinion!
Same thing with calls that involve drugs... cops are NOT doctors or addiction specialists, all they can do is determine if any drug laws are being broken and arrest accordingly. When it comes to drugs, that is usually not the most effective course of action, and may even make the problem worse.
Point is, looking at society today, its very apparent, we need to come up with a better way of dealing with these things, and that starts with who we send out to calls for help. I will admit, there are many calls that police are the best thing to respond to, like Burglaries in progress, going out looking for wanted people, serving court papers, etc, but police are just not effective at handling other calls. Im glad this is finally being discussed seriously now, its long overdue.
Are cops really the best 'professionals' we can send to domestic violence calls though? Thats very strange, considering it is 2020 now!
All police are going to do is determine if someone broke any laws and arrest that person, cops are not trained social workers or psychologists, they could be walking into a domestic violence call that involves 2 paranoid schizophrenics!!! Are police officers really the best people to send to deal with this? Not in my opinion!
Same thing with calls that involve drugs... cops are NOT doctors or addiction specialists, all they can do is determine if any drug laws are being broken and arrest accordingly. When it comes to drugs, that is usually not the most effective course of action, and may even make the problem worse.
Point is, looking at society today, its very apparent, we need to come up with a better way of dealing with these things, and that starts with who we send out to calls for help. I will admit, there are many calls that police are the best thing to respond to, like Burglaries in progress, going out looking for wanted people, serving court papers, etc, but police are just not effective at handling other calls. Im glad this is finally being discussed seriously now, its long overdue.
Ridiculous.
The time for social workers is after everybody calms down, not while the couple are still pounding on each other while the cops are trying to pull them off each other. What is a social worker going to do? Ask them pretty please to quit pounding on each other?
You have a violent, naked man on PCP swinging a sword around while threatening people. OK, what is the doctor or drug addiction specialist going to do to disarm the naked man and keep him from harming people with the sword?
Eagerly awaiting your answers.
I sound facetious but I am trying to underscore that force or the potential of force and violence from the people being sent to is in play in all these cases. The police have the training and the weapons (including non-lethal), and the restraints to control these parties that social workers and doctors and drug addiction specialists to not.
Everyone you are advocating for to replace police are only useful after everyone is calm and the situation is controlled. The police are how you get to that point.
Are cops really the best 'professionals' we can send to domestic violence calls though? Thats very strange, considering it is 2020 now!
All police are going to do is determine if someone broke any laws and arrest that person, cops are not trained social workers or psychologists, they could be walking into a domestic violence call that involves 2 paranoid schizophrenics!!! Are police officers really the best people to send to deal with this? Not in my opinion!
Same thing with calls that involve drugs... cops are NOT doctors or addiction specialists, all they can do is determine if any drug laws are being broken and arrest accordingly. When it comes to drugs, that is usually not the most effective course of action, and may even make the problem worse.
Point is, looking at society today, its very apparent, we need to come up with a better way of dealing with these things, and that starts with who we send out to calls for help. I will admit, there are many calls that police are the best thing to respond to, like Burglaries in progress, going out looking for wanted people, serving court papers, etc, but police are just not effective at handling other calls. Im glad this is finally being discussed seriously now, its long overdue.
But it isn't being discussed seriously. Anyone who thinks a person other than an armed police officer should respond to a domestic violence call can't be serious.
The time for social workers is after everybody calms down, not while the couple are still pounding on each other while the cops are trying to pull them off each other. What is a social worker going to do? Ask them pretty please to quit pounding on each other?
You have a violent, naked man on PCP swinging a sword around while threatening people. OK, what is the doctor or drug addiction specialist going to do to disarm the naked man and keep him from harming people with the sword?
Eagerly awaiting your answers.
I sound facetious but I am trying to underscore that force or the potential of force and violence from the people being sent to is in play in all these cases. The police have the training and the weapons (including non-lethal), and the restraints to control these parties that social workers and doctors and drug addiction specialists to not.
Everyone you are advocating for to replace police are only useful after everyone is calm and the situation is controlled. The police are how you get to that point.
ALL OF THIS IS AND ESPECIALLY THE BOLD QUOTE!!
Once again, people like that other poster believe that a freaking social worker is going to be able to calm down paranoid schizophrenics or a domestic violence abuser with just TALKING to them. Yeah, lets just sit down and chat about how you shouldn't be beating the crap out of your wife or husband. You broke the law but you don't have to go to jail because you need HELPPPPP, you are just so oppressed and messed up, blah blah blah.
No.
The police keep you safe, period. The amount of bad cops out there versus bad citizens and criminals is not even comparable. And who ever said that there would be guarantees that all cops were going to be nice to every single person they come across? Seriously? Only 2 things in life are guaranteed: death and taxes. Cops are not required to be nice to anyone. Civil and respectful, yes, but nice? That's a bonus.
Don't like how law enforcement works? GROW UP and become one yourself then. YOU go to the academy and get trained and see just how blazing hard it is to deal with wife beaters, child abusers, drug addicts, baby killers, drug pushers, pimps, embezzlers, pedophiles and any other craptasitc walk of life that you come across on a daily basis. It's all good and fun to sit in your nice house or apartment with your righteous opinions about how cops should do their jobs when you have literally no damn experience as to what it's like to actually be one.
And let's be honest here: if YOUR home is being broken into or you see a parent slap the crap out a child in a park, who are you going to call? It ain't Ghostbusters, people. You'll call a QUALIFIED person to the scene and that is a COP. Not a social worker. Not a counselor. Not a doctor. Those people all come after the scene is dealt with and processed.
Are cops really the best 'professionals' we can send to domestic violence calls though? Thats very strange, considering it is 2020 now!
I guess that depends on how many social workers or intervenors or whatever you'd like to see get beaten to a pulp or shot and killed at these calls.
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