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This doesn't explain or even correlate with the statement that college-educated people mismanage money. To put it from a different perspective, if it's not taught, where are these trade skill and blue-collar workers picking it up? They went to the same high schools as these pro-sports athletes.
Steph Curry never finished college and has no degree. He learned how to make a living in college, that's what's important. A college degree is a commitment to a goal along with the time and money to get there.
The higher educational requirements result in remarkably better candidates. Lowering it meant we were firing those people in 6 months or less for lack of competence and ability to do the job. Every time. We will not lower the requirement for a bachelors degree again. Probably don't need to raise it to master's though, since our jobs are not subject-specific. But masters people are usually stronger.
I suspect most businesses have had a similar experience and that's why they have the requirements they do.
I am 35 years out of HS, 31 since college. Grew up in a midwestern metro; attended college in Massachusetts and have worked on the coasts for most of my career.
I will not hire people without a bachelors degree or an advanced degree, and it must be from a creditable institution. Too many horrifying experiences with people with no degree, and often worse, people with questionable credentials from "remote learning" or mail-order degrees.
There is no reason a talented HS graduate could not do the job (I manage tech people in positions that require brief periods of intense programming skill, but 80% of the time is meetings and analysis). But in my 30 years of experience, the people without the degree never work out. (I've inherited many).
Two parts to the problem: first, those who avoided/ dropped out/ did not think it worthwhile to attend college seem to have a lack of ambition which often translates into a lack of intensity that tech jobs sporadically require.
Second is more complex and societal. I recently drove across the country, and I was more astonished than ever (I've crossed the US dozens of times) at how dysfunctional the rural parts of the US have become. This was observed both as cultural stagnation and also the drop in educational standards in rural areas.
Cultural: a lack of sensitivity (I observed LGBT people mocked in several retail places; also witnessed withdrawal by locals when minorities -- particularly immigrant Asians -- were present). These cultures are now deeply rooted in the urban parts of the US -- it was eye-opening to see borderline hostility in the countryside.
The language and interpersonal skills that I observed were also weak. When I was a kid, my family spent a lot of time in the rural midwest, and the people in the rural areas did not then lack the common skills that we suburban people had -- common standards, like diction and writing and math, were more or less well-distributed nationally. That appears to have been lost. To be fair, that is also happening in the poor parts of cities. Only the well-to-do seem to maintain the high standards anymore.
But if I hire someone with a college degree, I know s/he is going to be accultured to work in a modern workplace -- women and minorities in leadership; lots of foreign-born talent that requires patience and cultural sensitivity, etc. I can teach certain writing skills, but getting a candidate past these other dysfunctions is just too much.
the ability to conceptualise and know where to find more information when needed is what the 4 years teaches us,not marketable skills,unless you call holding a pencil and paper marketable skill.or these days whipping out a smart phone and start texting !!
Many courses offered in unniversity should be made available in high school,4 years is too long and too expensive not to earn a living !
getting into middle class does not guarantee a better living standard these days,some blue collar workers do very well,SKILLS,SKILLS,SKILLS are what bring us the bacon,not TALK,TALK,TALK !
As we speak,2 men are in my garage putting up drywall,neither have gone to college,I will be making out a second check of $1250 for them,and that does not include insulation material which I would buy on my own.
"Cultural: a lack of sensitivity (I observed LGBT people mocked in several retail places; also witnessed withdrawal by locals when minorities -- particularly immigrant Asians -- were present). These cultures are now deeply rooted in the urban parts of the US -- it was eye-opening to see borderline hostility in the countryside."
I continue to read Deaths of Despair and will add more from that source to this thread in a few days.
I'm delighted with all the comments posted so far by everyone, this is the kind of well-reasoned dialog that I wish we had more of on City-Data.
A few stray thoughts.
Librarians are unsung heroes, keepers of our knowledge, offering many services, just ask them for help or advice and you will be rewarded.
My BIL is now retired from his skilled trade of being a block layer and a brick layer. He worked damned hard and supported my sister and two kids just fine. But that work took a hard toll on his body, he's in a poor state of health now. Neither he nor my sister went to college, he worked construction and she worked as a realtor and/or as a scheduler in the cancer center at JHU in Baltimore. Money is tight for them but they get by.
We never had kids, never put that demand on any school system, but I'm glad to support good public schools for all kids with my tax dollars. Same for public parks, they are for the benefit of all and even though I almost never set foot in them I'm glad they exist for the sake of the greater good, or as the Preamble to the Constitution says "promote the general welfare." I believe in one for all and all for one without regard to race, religion, etc. I refuse to be petty and demand that everything be set up so that users of parks (or whatever) pay to use parks (or whatever). That's not how "one for all and all for one" works, that's why I don't like toll roads and Lexus lanes on freeways. We must not let certain interests play us one against another (by race, gender, age, nationality, faith) as has been done for so long by those with devious agendas. The only way to build a better nation is for all of us to pitch in and get 'r done side by side.
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1) if you were a college president, what would you do with your arts and humanities departments? Because if you don't promote them they will die. Students will absorb the messages that these are useless subjects and will not take the classes. They already are. Declared majors in the traditional academic subjects especially liberal arts and humanities has plummeted. But also some of the pure maths and sciences.
You'll be forced to close them for lack of enrollment.
Keep in mind that as a college president you are responsible for maintaining your institution's reputation and rankings, as well as fulfilling the stated mission and legislative or founding charters of the institution
2) If you were a state legislator on the higher education committee, would you increase or decrease funding to colleges who did close their humanities departments?
Keeping in mind as a state legislator, you are responsible for promoting the state's interests which includes as strong and well rounded universities as possible. You want to attract and educate people who will add value to your state, and also keep your best homegrown talent in-state, not export it.
Well, even though you're trying to set a logic trap, I'll play. What kind of college am I president of and what is the student body (IE customer base) it serves? Is it a state flagship? Is it aiming for a top 25 US News or to be a top STEM university? Land Grant? Or is it a small LAC with a big fund base or struggling to survive?
Is it a powerhouse football school or are sports secondary? My job isn't to promote or demote any specific major, degree program, department, or college (for a university). It's to best serve the target customer base, maintain and upgrade facilities, and oversee a large and diverse staff.
The overall departments aren't going to die, because as I said earlier, a good, well rounded education is essential to be an educated person, regardless of major. There will still be grammar, literature, history, geography, some level of classics, art, etc. What there may not be is pet project degree programs that don't provide a return on investment to the university.
If I were a legislator, my vote to increase or decrease funding wouldn't be based on the humanities department. That's really a silly question. It would be based on how well the university is serving the needs of the state vs the overall needs to balance a state budget at the least impact to the taxpayers.
Don't you love how the more educated people get, the more they look down on those living in flyover country?
Indeed!
It’s completely ridiculous to say people who don’t go to college aren’t ambitious. My FIL didn’t go to college and he is a multi-millionaire. Someone upthread said, and I agree, we need more paths to the middle class in this country. However, I would go further and rephrase that to we need more paths to success in this country.
I further take exception to PP’s blanket characterization of rural mid-westerners as bigoted and uneducated. I think he found what he was looking for, and as an outsider traveling through, he has no real basis to make such claims.
I'm not sure what it is like today because I've lived on the east coast for the last 50 years. But when I was 14 I spent a couple of weeks at a summer camp in rural Washington. We all went to a drive in movie theater where the movie was The Parent Trap starring "Haley Mills and Haley Mills as identical cousins". I could not convince any of the campers or counselors that there was only one Haley Mills. They all were certain there were two because the marquee said "starring Haley Mills and Haley Mills". It seemed to me that many (but not all) rural people were slower than city folk, less likely to be open minded or stray from what the rest of the community thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by calgirlinnc
Indeed!
It’s completely ridiculous to say people who don’t go to college aren’t ambitious. My FIL didn’t go to college and he is a multi-millionaire. Someone upthread said, and I agree, we need more paths to the middle class in this country. However, I would go further and rephrase that to we need more paths to success in this country.
I further take exception to PP’s blanket characterization of rural mid-westerners as bigoted and uneducated. I think he found what he was looking for, and as an outsider traveling through, he has no real basis to make such claims.
My concern is not so much against a college degree as it is kids coming out with big huge debts with degrees in useless subjects. Sure, if there are still enough STEM jobs open and the student graduates with a useful degree, I totally agree. It is a big scam to have kids borrow for some college experience that does nothing to prepare them for a career.
The "big huge debts with degrees in useless subjects" is a myth perpetuated by individuals with agendas. The median loan debt for all borrowers in 2016 was $17,000. Borrowers with less than a bachelor degree owed a median debt of $10,000. The median for borrowers with bachelor's degree was $25,000. Borrowers with post-graduate degrees owed a median amount of $45,000. Only about 7% of borrowers owe more than $100,000, or about 1% of the US adult population. (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...student-loans/)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobspez
For many people without money or connections and who don't want manual labor or sales jobs, a degree is the easiest ticket into the middle class.
And there's nothing wrong with a Liberal Arts degree if you don't have a career in science or tech already in mind when you start college. I don't believe a business degree is valued more than liberal arts in job interviews. They both have their advantages. And most jobs that require them just want to know you have a bachelor's degree in anything.
People keep talking about the cost being 200K. Many people, especially in cities, have state and community colleges within commuting distance. If a person commutes to a local college and lives at home, the cost for 4 years is $55K maximum.
Working just 12 hours a week for minimum wage during the school year plus 40 hrs. per week in summer they can earn $5K per year which will knock $20K off the bill, meaning they should have a maximum of $35K in student loans after 4 years. On a thirty year student loan, payments would be about $150 a month.
Once established in their jobs, people can easily pay off the loan quicker if they want to. And $55K without working at all or $35K for those working 12 hours a week during the school year and 40 hrs. a week during the summer, is for four years at the most expensive public colleges, so adding two years of junior college, working at a higher than minimum wage, getting some amount from parents, lowers that substantially and makes college degrees affordable for everyone.
I made it through 4 years at UCLA, got a liberal arts degree, worked, and wound up with student loans I easily paid off over the next 10 years. My son got a liberal arts degree from Hunter College in NYC, worked, and had a total 4 year student loan debt of less than what a new Toyota Camry costs. It would work just as well for my grandsons for their college costs today.
The 2/3 of citizens without degrees have relatives and children and grandchildren who will get them. Taxes provide services for those who need or want them. I don't mind paying taxes for welfare or the fire department though I never needed them. I am paying taxes because I or someone I know may need them.
Very well said, sir.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slater
There's probably thousands of librarians around the country without an MBA. They seem to be getting by somehow.
Librarians don't need MBAs. They do need MLS, however, because library science is a professional degree. Unless they are working part time in small town libraries, librarians are going to need the MLS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by westender
I am 35 years out of HS, 31 since college. Grew up in a midwestern metro; attended college in Massachusetts and have worked on the coasts for most of my career.
I will not hire people without a bachelors degree or an advanced degree, and it must be from a creditable institution. Too many horrifying experiences with people with no degree, and often worse, people with questionable credentials from "remote learning" or mail-order degrees.
There is no reason a talented HS graduate could not do the job (I manage tech people in positions that require brief periods of intense programming skill, but 80% of the time is meetings and analysis). But in my 30 years of experience, the people without the degree never work out. (I've inherited many).
Two parts to the problem: first, those who avoided/ dropped out/ did not think it worthwhile to attend college seem to have a lack of ambition which often translates into a lack of intensity that tech jobs sporadically require.
Second is more complex and societal. I recently drove across the country, and I was more astonished than ever (I've crossed the US dozens of times) at how dysfunctional the rural parts of the US have become. This was observed both as cultural stagnation and also the drop in educational standards in rural areas.
Cultural: a lack of sensitivity (I observed LGBT people mocked in several retail places; also witnessed withdrawal by locals when minorities -- particularly immigrant Asians -- were present). These cultures are now deeply rooted in the urban parts of the US -- it was eye-opening to see borderline hostility in the countryside.
The language and interpersonal skills that I observed were also weak. When I was a kid, my family spent a lot of time in the rural midwest, and the people in the rural areas did not then lack the common skills that we suburban people had -- common standards, like diction and writing and math, were more or less well-distributed nationally. That appears to have been lost. To be fair, that is also happening in the poor parts of cities. Only the well-to-do seem to maintain the high standards anymore.
But if I hire someone with a college degree, I know s/he is going to be accultured to work in a modern workplace -- women and minorities in leadership; lots of foreign-born talent that requires patience and cultural sensitivity, etc. I can teach certain writing skills, but getting a candidate past these other dysfunctions is just too much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by calgirlinnc
This is an over simplification and an over generalization.
Sounds like typical progressive disdain for "flyover country", not to mention snobbish.
Basically you are admitting that unless someone has been indoctrinated in college, they are not woke enough for you.
Maybe you should take off your political blinders and take a hard look at the rural areas in your own state. Westender has absolutely nailed the cultural decline of small town America. At best, small towns and rural areas are suffering from economic stagnation if not out right decline, and that's happening all over the country anywhere that's too far for an easy commute to a large metro with job opportunities.
My home town is a perfect example of the cultural decline Westender described. When I graduated from HS in 1968, my small town had thousands of jobs, many of them managerial or professional. There was a state mental hospital and a state center for the developmentally disabled in town as well as a large tannery and a glue factory. There was a hospital as well as supermarkets, a department store and a Ben Franklin store, furniture store, several drug stores plus numerous other shops and stores. There were several doctors, dentists and optometrists in town. The managers, administrators, and doctors and other professionals all lived in and around town, and their children went to the local central school. The town, population about 3500, had an art league and a country club as well as a volunteer fire department, conservation club, American Legion, VFW, and a half dozen bars.
Neither of my parents graduated from high school, and our relatives, friends, and neighbors were all minimally educated farmers, factory workers or other blue collar workers. I was a farm kid who benefited from my association with the children of well educated middle class people who wanted their children to have education similar to what they'd have in suburban schools. Our field trips included live theater performances at the Studio Arena Theater in Buffalo and concerts at the Buffalo Philharmonic Orchestra. About 8% of my graduating class won state tuition scholarships, which put my HS on a par with the suburban districts around Buffalo. I was one of those scholarship winners, which paid my tuition for four years.
Recent and future graduates of my high school don't have the exposure to many middle class people except for teachers and some businessmen. Almost all of those jobs offering middle class salaries are gone. Most of the jobs in private industry are gone. The state mental hospital was turned into 2 state prisons, but most of the personnel live closer to Buffalo. The state center for the developmentally disabled is a rotting hulk on a hillside. The tannery and glue factory have been razed but they've left the town with a Superfund site. Ambitious young people have been leaving for decades, and few of them ever return, leaving young people with limited ambition or aspiration to work dead-end minimum wage jobs. There was a devastating flood in 2009 that destroyed the hospital which was never rebuilt. Alcoholism is rampant. Crystal meth and opioids are the drugs of choice. Illegal marijuana plantations were the only growth industry. (I say 'were' because NYS recently legalized marijuana, including growing plants to produce cannabis).
The town and area are filled with retirees (many of whom are decently well off because they have state pensions) and devoid of employed middle class people. There are lots of people surviving on welfare and minimum wage jobs. Most of the farms and small businesses are gone. The school system is now a bottom tier school. And, my town isn't even the worst off among the small towns in the area, some of which are likely to become ghost towns in the next two decades or so.
Finally, it's NOT "indoctrination" to learn to treat people who are different from you with respect, especially when you come from a culture where bigotry is considered "no big deal". Aside from being good manners, it's a job skill.
Last edited by Dingo Gibby; 06-05-2021 at 08:23 PM..
Maybe you should take off your political blinders and take a hard look at the rural areas in your own state. Westender has absolutely nailed the cultural decline of small town America. At best, small towns and rural areas are suffering from economic stagnation if not out right decline, and that's happening all over the country anywhere that's too far for an easy commute to a large metro with job opportunities.
Westender’s comment was filled with political buzzwords. LGBT persons and Asians are the current poster children for discrimination, even more so than blacks. I completely agree with you about the decline across the US, but choosing to focus on the Midwest was another giveaway as to Westender’s agenda. I lived on the the East Coast for 20 years and the West Coast for 20 years. Both coasts have their fair share of “hicks”, of the poor and the uneducated, as much as the middle of the country does.
It is the intellectuals on the coasts who like to slam the “Midwest” and Midwestern farmers, and declare that everyone from Iowa is ignorant and backwards and shocked to death if they ever see a gay person, a non-white person, or a transgender person. I have read tons of comments like this on CD. (No, I do not live in Iowa). Furthermore, most of the commentators on CD mocking those from the Midwest have spent no great amount of time there and are basing their impressions on having “driven through” a few times.
I have encountered more ignorance, poor education, and general bigotry on the East Coast than I ever have in the Midwest.
Quote:
Finally, it's NOT "indoctrination" to learn to treat people who are different from you with respect, especially when you come from a culture where bigotry is considered "no big deal". Aside from being good manners, it's a job skill.
Learning to treat people with respect does not come from a college education. It comes from a good and loving home, from proper parenting. Plenty of college educated people are arrogant you-know-what’s, and plenty of non college educated people are kind, considerate and compassionate. Nor does bigotry confine itself to small towns and rural areas Bigotry exists in NYC and LA and everywhere in between.
Making such overreaching assumptions about the a person’s character based on education and their geographical background is extremely disturbing.
Maybe you should stop being so judgmental and take people on a one to one basis.
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