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"We were missing out on a lot of talent by having what we saw as an arbitrary requirement for a lot of positions," said Paris Wallace, CEO and co-founder of Ovia Health. "It's not about doing the right thing for us. It's about being a great company."
"They've turned college from a bridge to opportunity to a drawbridge that gets pulled up if someone hasn't gotten through," said economist Byron Auguste, who served as deputy director of the National Economic Council in the Obama administration and now is the CEO of Opportunity@Work.
Auguste said in 2021 college degrees have become a proxy for race and class in America.
Thank goodness for the employers and workforce, and competent employees W/O the means or time for a completed college degree program. (which, as mentioned... does not equal a College Education)
There is no proof / measure that a college experience does anything to prepare someone for employment. (or life)
"We were missing out on a lot of talent by having what we saw as an arbitrary requirement for a lot of positions," said Paris Wallace, CEO and co-founder of Ovia Health. "It's not about doing the right thing for us. It's about being a great company."
"They've turned college from a bridge to opportunity to a drawbridge that gets pulled up if someone hasn't gotten through," said economist Byron Auguste, who served as deputy director of the National Economic Council in the Obama administration and now is the CEO of Opportunity@Work.
Auguste said in 2021 college degrees have become a proxy for race and class in America.
Thank goodness for the employers and workforce, and competent employees W/O the means or time for a completed college degree program. (which, as mentioned... does not equal a College Education)
There is no proof / measure that a college experience does anything to prepare someone for employment. (or life)
Ironically the point of that article was that the company in question is doing that because it's trying to reach more BIPOC. Credentialism is part of racial inequity in the U.S.
Quote:
"If you arbitrarily say that a job needs to have a bachelor's degree, you are screening out over 70% of African-Americans. You're screening out about 80% of Latino-Latina workers, and you're screening out over 80% of rural Americans of all races," he explained. "And you're doing that before any skills are assessed. It's not fair."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57
Ironically the point of that article was that the company in question is doing that because it's trying to reach more BIPOC. Credentialism is part of racial inequity in the U.S.
Yes, and the benefit (of diversity, whether race or experience / thought / education (including lack of degree)) will spill over to the benefit of many companies and employees. It is so valuable to have the latitude to hire internationally qualified candidates. When we rolled in the composite culture, education, and experience of our entire international manufacturing and design operations, we gained a lot of benefits. "College experience" was quite minimal to our success, tho we always hired a few of the top grads in our narrow tech field. They were not the top tangible performers, but brought the diversity of thought / background to enhance the WW team.
It was quite interesting as to the value of the content from the top U's in USA we hired. It was very obvious that top academically did not often represent high tier contributions to actual application of their 'supposedly' learned knowledge. None-the-less, we were a team, and all contributed. Our suppliers were appalled at what we were hiring as 'top tier', and always commented... "But who is going to train them!"
Yes, and the benefit (of diversity, whether race or experience / thought / education (including lack of degree)) will spill over to the benefit of many companies and employees. It is so valuable to have the latitude to hire internationally qualified candidates. When we rolled in the composite culture, education, and experience of our entire international manufacturing and design operations, we gained a lot of benefits. "College experience" was quite minimal to our success, tho we always hired a few of the top grads in our narrow tech field. They were not the top tangible performers, but brought the diversity of thought / background to enhance the WW team.
It was quite interesting as to the value of the content from the top U's in USA we hired. It was very obvious that top academically did not often represent high tier contributions to actual application of their 'supposedly' learned knowledge. None-the-less, we were a team, and all contributed. Our suppliers were appalled at what we were hiring as 'top tier', and always commented... "But who is going to train them!"
College doesn't train people for jobs. The knowledge you gain there is not important for working, regardless of major. Except for the most direct vocational certifications where you're actually doing the job.
A young and/or inexperienced person is young and/or inexperiemced regardless of the quality of their education. But better education usually means they learn and adapt faster.
Even teachers who majored in the subject they teach only use a fraction of what they learned in their own classes. Most of what they know about how to teach is learned in their first 5 years of teaching.
We know this.
But try to make a high-school-only graduate a teacher and it probably won't work out unless he or she is extraordinary.
Last edited by redguard57; 04-29-2021 at 09:59 PM..
All of the cited articles have much more info; my bottom line here is that not getting a college education creates major hazards for those with only high school or less.
On a certain level I feel that high school, college and graduate school educations, collectively, last too long. As a practicing attorney for almost forty years I feel that my office could train a reasonably intelligent 16 year old to write briefs and argue cases. Much of the instruction during this 11+ years is repetitive, redundant and reiterative. A lot of it is visionary and impractical. I do not practice other fields but my instinct is the same.
Why I pause from the ultimate result of this reasoning, and returning to the "Ben Franklin" days where he learned what he needed to know as an apprentice in Boston, is that a 16 year old is an adolescent. Making choices with lifelong consequences, both good and bad, takes time and consideration. While Ben Franklin was able to use his education acquired during his printing days to learn how to found a university and participate in the founding of a great nation, not everyone is going to be so fortunate. Some will make bad choices and use the educational years our current system gives to go in another direction. Take myself, for example. At 16, fresh from having lost a father after a battle with cancer, I wanted to help the world by becoming a doctor. I don't know how good I would have been in that field. I am a pretty good, if not great, lawyer.
On a certain level I feel that high school, college and graduate school educations, collectively, last too long. As a practicing attorney for almost forty years I feel that my office could train a reasonably intelligent 16 year old to write briefs and argue cases. Much of the instruction during this 11+ years is repetitive, redundant and reiterative. A lot of it is visionary and impractical. I do not practice other fields but my instinct is the same.
Why I pause from the ultimate result of this reasoning, and returning to the "Ben Franklin" days where he learned what he needed to know as an apprentice in Boston, is that a 16 year old is an adolescent. Making choices with lifelong consequences, both good and bad, takes time and consideration. While Ben Franklin was able to use his education acquired during his printing days to learn how to found a university and participate in the founding of a great nation, not everyone is going to be so fortunate. Some will make bad choices and use the educational years our current system gives to go in another direction. Take myself, for example. At 16, fresh from having lost a father after a battle with cancer, I wanted to help the world by becoming a doctor. I don't know how good I would have been in that field. I am a pretty good, if not great, lawyer.
Sounds more like an indictment of your profession than of college.
I must be odd. I readily admit I learned a lot during college. And in grad school. And even more in the past 40 years. 16 or 18 year old me could not have done the job that 25 year old me did. 25 year old me could not have done the job 40 year old me did. We certainly couldn't train a 16 year old to write reports and briefings. We have a hard enough time training college grads and folks with experience to do it.
I think in a lot of cases it's not that we didn't learn in college so much that it's become so second nature to know those things we forget there was a time when we didn't.
Sounds more like an indictment of your profession than of college.
I must be odd. I readily admit I learned a lot during college. And in grad school. And even more in the past 40 years. 16 or 18 year old me could not have done the job that 25 year old me did. 25 year old me could not have done the job 40 year old me did. We certainly couldn't train a 16 year old to write reports and briefings. We have a hard enough time training college grads and folks with experience to do it.
I think in a lot of cases it's not that we didn't learn in college so much that it's become so second nature to know those things we forget there was a time when we didn't.
I didn't mean it as an indictment of my profession so much as to say that apprenticeship, nowadays bearing different labels is still crucial. I learned a lot too. But many do not and it serves as a "holding pen" more than anything.
On a certain level I feel that high school, college and graduate school educations, collectively, last too long. As a practicing attorney for almost forty years I feel that my office could train a reasonably intelligent 16 year old to write briefs and argue cases. Much of the instruction during this 11+ years is repetitive, redundant and reiterative. A lot of it is visionary and impractical. I do not practice other fields but my instinct is the same.
I agree, and I'm an engineer. Though, that person would have to be reasonably inclined in math and doing simple formulas, the most of what we do is paperwork and I know for a fact it is for most engineers.
The thing that separates me from somebody off the street is how fast I can do the paperwork. I'm gauged for productivity, so some 16 year old off the street, while he might reasonably be able to do what I do with some training ... it would take him forever, and ... he'd be fired.
But 100% agree on education being way too long and impractical.
Plus ... 16 year olds wouldn't know how to handle getting yelled at by clients who want to know why you spent hundreds of thousands of their dollars and a lawyer is writing them a letter saying it's deficient...
On a certain level I feel that high school, college and graduate school educations, collectively, last too long. As a practicing attorney for almost forty years I feel that my office could train a reasonably intelligent 16 year old to write briefs and argue cases. Much of the instruction during this 11+ years is repetitive, redundant and reiterative. A lot of it is visionary and impractical. I do not practice other fields but my instinct is the same.
Why I pause from the ultimate result of this reasoning, and returning to the "Ben Franklin" days where he learned what he needed to know as an apprentice in Boston, is that a 16 year old is an adolescent. Making choices with lifelong consequences, both good and bad, takes time and consideration. While Ben Franklin was able to use his education acquired during his printing days to learn how to found a university and participate in the founding of a great nation, not everyone is going to be so fortunate. Some will make bad choices and use the educational years our current system gives to go in another direction. Take myself, for example. At 16, fresh from having lost a father after a battle with cancer, I wanted to help the world by becoming a doctor. I don't know how good I would have been in that field. I am a pretty good, if not great, lawyer.
Don't sell your education short. The process is the point. The redundency and reiteration had value. Learning is a lifelong process. High school and college are like the booster rockets. When they have finished firing, your journey is still far from done.
If you want to test it, dig up some of your own high school coursework and see if you think the 16 year old you could be trained by the current you to be a lawyer. I bet not. I'm embarassed by the work I did in high school relative to what I was capable of after grad school.
I thought much like you. I said almost the same bolded quote. But now I actually have experience downgrading a job class from bachelors degree required to bachelors degree preferred. And I did precisely motivated by the bolded sentiment. Long story short, the associates degree people we tried crashed, although were minimally salvageable. The high school graduates crashed and BURNED. They were not even close to capable of doing the work, requiring so much handholding from me as to make it better for them not to work. We put back the bachelor degree requirement, and upgraded to masters preferred. Did much better. I was criticized for championing the downgrade.
Ben Franklin was an extraordinary person. The Elon Musk of his time. Better even. What he did, very few people are capable of.
Jobs have been exported since NAFTA was passed. I am talking about factory jobs for people that can't hack it as a plumber or an electrician. There are 46 year old chronically unemployed guys turning to drugs and petty crime, getting killed by cops in America when they could be working in a factory stamping out widgets. For every guy like that there are dozens more on permanent disability.
Sadly, our elected representatives consciously chased our factories offshore via punitive taxation schemes and extraordinary regulatory red tape.
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