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I may have exaggerated when I said "any reasonably intelligent 16 year old." I'll grant you that. I think, however, that many professional educational requirements are onerous, and designed to erect barriers to entry rather than ensuring qualification. .I practice opposite many an attorney whose intelligence and diligence I really wonder about. I think, more realistic than a hypothetical 16 year old doing this, law school of business or accounting training could be rolled into the final two years of college, and perhaps high school trimmed back to three years. Granted, this would break a lot of union hearts.
I am not a doctor so I don't know about medical school and whether than can be compressed.
Well no one's stopping you from getting together the financing and starting an academy to that effect.
However, were you to try, I wager you would be disappointed in your success rate, and your academy would either extend the matriculation time to be more like your peers, or go out of business.
With well over a century of modern education, it's likely some innovator would have done that compression by now if it worked.
And if I'm not mistaken you can apply to law schools without a bachelors degree.
One thing I've noticed in my industry, data centers, is that pay is pretty darn good for a workforce that's majority state university bachelor degree. There's more people without degrees than there are with masters and above, though many had navy experience. A good number of the leadership had bachelors in psych or music and some had no degree at all. It's usually the finance department that has grad experience.
I believe the tech industry in general is more experience oriented, less education. Other sectors like medicine, government, or even Fortune 500 are more credential worried.
There seems to be a pretty broad consensus that a bachelors degree is the logical exit point for the majority of young people today, where no degree or 2 year is usually a detriment but grad school doesn't statistically add much, if you factor lost experience and time value of money.
The key point to drive home to people looking at college is where does not matter so much as what and as long as you finish. Going community college to state is doable with minimal debt and basically avoids the entire student loan trap.
Well no one's stopping you from getting together the financing and starting an academy to that effect.
However, were you to try, I wager you would be disappointed in your success rate, and your academy would either extend the matriculation time to be more like your peers, or go out of business.
With well over a century of modern education, it's likely some innovator would have done that compression by now if it worked.
And if I'm not mistaken you can apply to law schools without a bachelors degree.
The problem is that unless the shortening is done uniformly, a 25 year old will still be more mature and marketable that a 20 year old. I don't know the answer on law school application but the difficulty would be convincing the law school of the rigor of pre-law school education. Otherwise I'd be all for it.
The problem is that unless the shortening is done uniformly, a 25 year old will still be more mature and marketable that a 20 year old. I don't know the answer on law school application but the difficulty would be convincing the law school of the rigor of pre-law school education. Otherwise I'd be all for it.
Incidentally, in Europe they do compress somewhat. In Germany, France, etc.. you'll generally find that they compress by about 1.5-2 years compared to the U.S. Their last 2 years of high school equivalents and first 2 years of college equivalents would remind you more of our 4 year college curricula. As a result, their bachelor degrees can be earned in 3 years, with the last year reminding me more of year-1 of a Master's program in the U.S.
They accomplish that by taking out all the extraneous stuff and by more aggressive tracking. Teachers and especially principals in France appeared to me to have extraordinary power. A principal could basically decide at age 12-14 the direction of a student's future based on teacher assessments.
Sports were handled by sports clubs and not connected to school, although most students did some amount of sport. Social functions, same way. Interestingly, arts and culture such as music class was taken much more seriously there. What would have been considered an art or music elective in my high school was for them considered a part of core curricula.
Somehow they do more in less time.
I had an Austrian exchange student exclaim to me that Americans spend an extraordinary amount of time at school not actually doing anything.
Last edited by redguard57; 05-07-2021 at 11:07 PM..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57
Incidentally, in Europe they do compress somewhat. ...
...
Somehow they do more in less time.
I had an Austrian exchange student exclaim to me that Americans spend an extraordinary amount of time at school not actually doing anything.
As did my homeschooled kids when we volunteered 3x / week in Public School.
After the first week, my youngest exclaimed, "If those students would listen and take the inititive to do something without being told each and every instruction, they could be outta there by noon everyday!"
Thus " Value of a college education." or any education, seems to attract a whole lot of support from those making a living off of it... (as expected). or.. justifiying thier own tuition / alma mater / kid's contribution.
As a PT Prof, Employer (job creator), Small business owner, and a skilled craftsman (in several trades) + farmer...(and significant taxpayer - >$20k / yr to state and public schools in 4 different states).... I have a very different perspective (also because I have to hire and TRAIN and deal with the output.)
While I have 5 degrees... their value is not significant, as I always kept plenty of well paying options available that only required skills / experience. But... money is not my motivator, I have always gave away more than I spend on myself, been funding scholarships for others for over 50 yrs. (but my kids paid 100% of their own way, it was VERY cheap for them)
Incidentally, in Europe they do compress somewhat. In Germany, France, etc.. you'll generally find that they compress by about 1.5-2 years compared to the U.S. Their last 2 years of high school equivalents and first 2 years of college equivalents would remind you more of our 4 year college curricula. As a result, their bachelor degrees can be earned in 3 years, with the last year reminding me more of year-1 of a Master's program in the U.S.
They accomplish that by taking out all the extraneous stuff and by more aggressive tracking. Teachers and especially principals in France appeared to me to have extraordinary power. A principal could basically decide at age 12-14 the direction of a student's future based on teacher assessments.
Sports were handled by sports clubs and not connected to school, although most students did some amount of sport. Social functions, same way. Interestingly, arts and culture such as music class was taken much more seriously there. What would have been considered an art or music elective in my high school was for them considered a part of core curricula.
Somehow they do more in less time.
I had an Austrian exchange student exclaim to me that Americans spend an extraordinary amount of time at school not actually doing anything.
I would agree with such a program for our schools. For example, why do colleges repeat English Comp, Lit, and US History when those should have been taught in High School? We should have stronger tracking like in Europe. Seems like the US education system loves everything about Europe except these very things. Our system tends to be in love with the lowest performing students, not the highest.
I'm sure there will be someone along to exclaim "but I was a poor student school and I didn't find myself until .... If I'd been tracked I'd have never ...!" Well if that's the case you dug yourself into a hole and can dig yourself out of it. But don't try to drag the rest of the students in class down in that hole with you.
Talk about time wasters in school, that's one of the biggest. Teachers spending 80% of class time on the handful of non performing students going over the same things again and again while the middle half of the class starts to cut up and the top performers are bored out of their minds. And then get yelled at by the teacher for "not keeping place" with the bottom students.
When it comes to sports, what's interesting is even in this country today, the best athletes in a lot of sports compete in club sports rather than school. Except for perhaps football, most of the major scouting and recruiting is now done out of clubs. I do understand the sentiment behind "healthy mind in a healthy body" so if it were up to me, school sports would be organized in an everyone must play a sport design rather around sports designed for only a few. For example, I was too small for football but I had a mean volleyball serve and was (at that age) fearless as a diver. But neither volleyball nor diving were organized sports around there. Just football, basketball, and baseball.
An article in today's WaPo with a collection of first-person stories from people who believe community college saved their life.
Here are just two of the stories:
"I flunked out of a state university as a freshman, was aimless, then enrolled in a community college in western NE, where the faculty cared deeply about the success of every student. From there, I went back to a university, graduated, became a journalist and then a physician, and am now about to retire as a health-system executive. My daughter struggled with poor self-esteem and fell into drug use. She slowly moved back into school through community college in SoCal. Now, a few years later, she has completed her bachelor of science degree in nursing and is serving a challenging population in one of our rural states. To me, community college has saved two lives in our family."
I grew up in Baltimore County a rebellious, underachieving student. When I graduated from high school, I had no plan. Somehow, I applied to the local community college, a start-up in an old rattletrap building a dozen blocks from home. I failed World History 101 and was put on probation, but that shock awakened me to the value of applying myself. I transferred after two years to earn a teaching degree. Later, married, I earned a master’s at the University of NC, taught for 10 years, had two children and finally decided to take my federal career to a higher level. I started law school at the University of Baltimore in a four-year night program as my older child started her freshman year at college. I graduated in 1995, at age 50. I have loved my educational journey, which I attribute to the existence of local public libraries and my community college’s timely inception."
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Last edited by Mike from back east; 05-08-2021 at 12:51 PM..
The problem is that unless the shortening is done uniformly, a 25 year old will still be more mature and marketable that a 20 year old. I don't know the answer on law school application but the difficulty would be convincing the law school of the rigor of pre-law school education. Otherwise I'd be all for it.
I had a friend from 1982 until he moved to Europe named Chris. Thoroughly bored with high school he took the GED at age 15 and passed. He matriculated at UCLA, after his father threatened litigation after they said "well, a GED isn't for this type of student", meaning it was only for gangbangers who regretted not finishing high school. Graduating UCLA in three years, he started UCLA Law School starting when he was 18, and when I met him that June he had graduated with honors and was studying for the New York bar.
While he had a starting job with a "good" firm it wasn't the top-level firm that top-tier graduates normally got into. A 21 year old (he had turned in February) is not a 25 year old.
I would agree with such a program for our schools. For example, why do colleges repeat English Comp, Lit, and US History when those should have been taught in High School? We should have stronger tracking like in Europe. Seems like the US education system loves everything about Europe except these very things. Our system tends to be in love with the lowest performing students, not the highest.
I'm sure there will be someone along to exclaim "but I was a poor student school and I didn't find myself until .... If I'd been tracked I'd have never ...!" Well if that's the case you dug yourself into a hole and can dig yourself out of it. But don't try to drag the rest of the students in class down in that hole with you.
Talk about time wasters in school, that's one of the biggest. Teachers spending 80% of class time on the handful of non performing students going over the same things again and again while the middle half of the class starts to cut up and the top performers are bored out of their minds. And then get yelled at by the teacher for "not keeping place" with the bottom students.
When it comes to sports, what's interesting is even in this country today, the best athletes in a lot of sports compete in club sports rather than school. Except for perhaps football, most of the major scouting and recruiting is now done out of clubs. I do understand the sentiment behind "healthy mind in a healthy body" so if it were up to me, school sports would be organized in an everyone must play a sport design rather around sports designed for only a few. For example, I was too small for football but I had a mean volleyball serve and was (at that age) fearless as a diver. But neither volleyball nor diving were organized sports around there. Just football, basketball, and baseball.
The problem is that in Europe they've always been a little more comfortable with hierarchy. The big difference in Europe's educational system compared to America is the power that teachers and principals have.
In Europe, traditionally someone from the affluent or landed classes would become the high school and university teachers. They were also generously compensated as recognition of their status. In Germany, for example, they still have the term "studienrat" for high school teachers. It literally translates as "upper education councilor." To become a studienrat you have to have two master's degrees, e.g.; Mathematics and Physics to be a teacher of math/science. History and Philosophy to be a history teacher, etc... To Americans, a German high school class taught by a studienrat would seem similar to a university class at a mid-tier American college. The Germans have tried to make it somewhat more egalitarian but only one of the German states has done away with the title.
These people can make or break you at a young age. The teachers and principals evaluate the students and put them on one track or another. The student and the parents get no choice. There are ways to go back to school in Europe at an older age if you were not motivated as a kid, BUT it is culturally seen as "weird." They have versions of basically our community colleges which are night schools where you can train for the entrance tests and get into university over age 30, but it's culturally very awkward for people who try to do that unless being sponsored by their job. They are more comfortable accepting their station in Europe. They don't have as much class envy as America. In other words, if you did NOT make the college track - there is little social penalty for that, it is not seen as a personal failing. If you do a good job at what you do that is enough for most of them. Going tinto the vocational track is seen as just as honorable as the academic track, and both have avenues that can result in similar salaries, pensions.
In America we feel ashamed of poor education performance. In Europe they look at it more pragmatically and less emotionally. They don't judge people as much and have less obsession with things like rankings and prestige pecking orders.
In America, becoming a teacher is kind of the lowest job of the middle class, not very well respected, and traditionally were often the middle class people who couldn't get jobs doing anything else because of social restrictions, ie: women. The job does not pay very well relative to the workload and stress, and MOST importantly, it does not come with cultural prestige. In Europe where they use something like the German system, being an upper level high school teacher comes with the kind of status that in America would be similar to respected small-town lawyer. Being a university lecturer is seen as one of the most prestigious jobs a community has, with a smilar status as say, owner of the major employer in town.
In America, teacher is seen as something that well qualified people only do as a fall back job, and as something the lower performers in college go into. The respected jobs are mostly in the private sector in tech, business, law, etc... In Europe they respect their public sector more.
Last edited by redguard57; 05-20-2021 at 01:51 PM..
Thanks to all for contributing to a thread that is quite useful for visitors to this site.
Today I revisited a year-old article in the NY Times about how working class (non-college whites) are suffering badly from deaths of despair as they are known (alcohol, drugs, suicide).
The article: "How Working-Class Life Is Killing Americans, in Charts" and it may be found on some other websites by now.
The gist is: "Up and down the age spectrum, deaths of despair have been surging for people without a four-year college degree."
Some key findings are:
Number of “deaths of despair” per 100,000 non-Hispanic whites aged 45-54
24 deaths per 100,000 for college educated
147 deaths per 100,000 for NON college educated (six times higher!)
The authors point out: "... working-class life in the United States is more difficult than it is in any other high-income country. European countries have faced the same kind of technological change we have, and they’re not seeing the people killing themselves with guns or drugs or alcohol,” Case says. “There is something unique about the way the U.S. is handling this."
The NY Times goes on to point out: "Inequality has risen more in the United States — and middle-class incomes have stagnated more severely — than in France, Germany, Japan or elsewhere. Large corporations have increased their market share, and labor unions have shriveled, leaving workers with little bargaining power. Outsourcing has become the norm, which means that executives often see low-wage workers not as colleagues but as expenses. ... And the United States suffers from by far the world’s most expensive health-care system. It acts as a tax on workers and drains resources that could otherwise be spent on schools, day care, roads, public transit and more. Despite its unparalleled spending, the American medical system also fails to keep many people healthy."
Per another NY Times article from 2015, much of the data is from a study by "two Princeton economists, Angus Deaton, who won the 2015 Nobel Prize in Economic Science, and Anne Case. Analyzing health and mortality data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and from other sources, they concluded that rising annual death rates among this group are being driven not by the big killers like heart disease and diabetes but by an epidemic of suicides and afflictions stemming from substance abuse: alcoholic liver disease and overdoses of heroin and prescription opioids."
The findings of the study have been published in a book titled: "Deaths of Despair and the Future of Capitalism" Here's the Princeton review of the book. The book has been on all sorts of best seller lists so here's the Amazon review page.
Oh how I wish many who read this posting have access to the NY Times, the charts in the article are awesome depictions of the sad state of affairs impacting our citizens who haven't had the benefit of a college education that notably enhances one's ability to cope with a difficult path forward in their lives. I hope our Federal and state leaders find a way to get more people a better education.
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Last edited by Mike from back east; 05-24-2021 at 12:35 PM..
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