Houston "The Great Unzoned City." (Dallas, Arlington: apartment complex, condos)

[Jack Lance]

Originally Posted by themosthated

But here we are discussing how Houston's lack of zoning has made it an exceptional case in a good way. So I guess I'll rephrase my questions by instead asking if you think that the lack of zoning will continue to be successful and eventually carry the city further than its peers (?). With zoning, Dallas-Fort Worth eclipsed the Houston area generations ago and I think they still have the brighter future. They wouldn't likely agree that the Houston model "should be copied".

The last time Greater Houston had a larger population than DFW was 1980 and we all know what happened then. Houston's biggest challenge to continued growth is diversifying the economy not zoning. If you can make the case that zoning stimulates economic diversity, then by all means let's hear the plan, but I see the Port of Houston for instance, as one of the biggest economic drivers in the local economy. Speculative warehouse space is springing up all over town spurred by the fact that Houston has a deep-water port, in locations industry has chosen and Government would have probably screwed up.

Zoning inside the loop perhaps should be considered, there is still some infill left but for the most part is built out. When other parts of the area develop, do the same, but let the area develop first then zone if and when appropriate.

[usc619]

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

"Eclipsed the Houston area generations ago"...are you being serious?

Pretty much everyone outside of a certain percentage of Houstonians would agree. To be honest, I can’t say that I’ve personally heard someone say otherwise. Only on Houston C-D data forums.

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by usc619

Pretty much everyone outside of a certain percentage of Houstonians would agree. To be honest, I can’t say that I’ve personally heard someone say otherwise. Only on Houston C-D data forums.

No question that DFW has "eclipsed" Houston economically since 2015, thanks to the economic diversity noted by JL, and Houston's less animated growth and relocation activity after the Thanksgiving 2014 oil bust. But "generations ago"? No, both metros were fairly in lockstep through the decades. And I would personally say that while Dallas city did a better job of preserving elements of its walkable urbanity in core neighborhoods outside Downtown, Houston had a more active CBD until recently and, most importantly, earlier and more widespread urban redevelopment and revitalization around the city, thanks in significant part to the lack of zoning.

[ParaguaneroSwag]

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

No question that DFW has "eclipsed" Houston economically since 2015, thanks to the economic diversity noted by JL, and Houston's less animated growth and relocation activity after the Thanksgiving 2014 oil bust. But "generations ago"? No, both metros were fairly in lockstep through the decades. And I would personally say that while Dallas city did a better job of preserving elements of its walkable urbanity in core neighborhoods outside Downtown, Houston had a more active CBD until recently and, most importantly, earlier and more widespread urban redevelopment and revitalization around the city, thanks in significant part to the lack of zoning.

You do realize usc’s post history no?

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by ParaguaneroSwag

You do realize usc’s post history no?

Yeah, always insisting that DFW suburbs are better...of course, he/she only means a few select ones, ignoring all the ones where most middle and working class folks live. Plus the Harris County crime stuff.

[usc619]

Originally Posted by ParaguaneroSwag

You do realize usc’s post history no?

…and who are you again?

[DabOnEm]

Originally Posted by Jack Lance

The last time Greater Houston had a larger population than DFW was 1980 and we all know what happened then. Houston's biggest challenge to continued growth is diversifying the economy not zoning. If you can make the case that zoning stimulates economic diversity, then by all means let's hear the plan, but I see the Port of Houston for instance, as one of the biggest economic drivers in the local economy. Speculative warehouse space is springing up all over town spurred by the fact that Houston has a deep-water port, in locations industry has chosen and Government would have probably screwed up.

Zoning inside the loop perhaps should be considered, there is still some infill left but for the most part is built out. When other parts of the area develop, do the same, but let the area develop first then zone if and when appropriate.

DFW was able to diversify its economy and bring in many outside companies in large part because it was an attractive place to relocate thanks to the zoning its incorporated suburbs have. There's a reason why many of these new companies moving into the Houston area today are setting up in places with quasi-zoning/incorporation like The Woodlands, which is the most attractive area for corporate relocations in the metro outside the Inner Loop.

There is no point zoning inside the loop at this point. Let the city remain unzoned. The problem with the Houston area has long been the unzoned, unincorporated areas that have no plan outside of the thoroughfare map everyone knows about. Okay so a road goes here and a road goes there, but what is going to be built next to the road? It wasn't as big of a problem back in the day, but now that the people here make up the largest part of the Houston area there are many issues.

I don't necessarily think zoning itself would solve the issues (it would solve some) but becoming incorporated cities would tremendously, IMO. One thing being a city could solve is the big lack of sidewalks in the unincorporated suburbs. Kids should not be making dirt trails because they walk along the roads so much. Pretty unsafe but that's what unincorporated areas not in master planned communities will get you. The bare minimum.

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

Yeah, always insisting that DFW suburbs are better...of course, he/she only means a few select ones, ignoring all the ones where most middle and working class folks live. Plus the Harris County crime stuff.

Yeah but even those middle/working class DFW burbs are move liveable than their unincorporated counterparts in Houston. The ones in DFW often come with a local downtown area nearby (and many of these are building themselves up to be quite nice), along with basic living amenities like sidewalks, sensor street lights instead timed (which can often be wastes of time!), and faster emergency responses.

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by DabOnEm

DFW was able to diversify its economy and bring in many outside companies in large part because it was an attractive place to relocate thanks to the zoning its incorporated suburbs have. There's a reason why many of these new companies moving into the Houston area today are setting up in places with quasi-zoning/incorporation like The Woodlands, which is the most attractive area for corporate relocations in the metro outside the Inner Loop.

There is no point zoning inside the loop at this point. Let the city remain unzoned. The problem with the Houston area has long been the unzoned, unincorporated areas that have no plan outside of the thoroughfare map everyone knows about. Okay so a road goes here and a road goes there, but what is going to be built next to the road? It wasn't as big of a problem back in the day, but now that the people here make up the largest part of the Houston area there are many issues.

I don't necessarily think zoning itself would solve the issues (it would solve some) but becoming incorporated cities would tremendously, IMO. One thing being a city could solve is the big lack of sidewalks in the unincorporated suburbs. Kids should not be making dirt trails because they walk along the roads so much. Pretty unsafe but that's what unincorporated areas not in master planned communities will get you. The bare minimum.

Yeah but even those middle/working class DFW burbs are move liveable than their unincorporated counterparts in Houston. The ones in DFW often come with a local downtown area nearby (and many of these are building themselves up to be quite nice), along with basic living amenities like sidewalks, sensor street lights instead timed (which can often be wastes of time!), and faster emergency responses.

That's a very big assertion to make (bolded statement). I've never seen a single shred of evidence to support it. Plano, Frisco, Richardson, and Irving (well, one part of Irving) are successful with relocations because of access to a concentration of pre-existing white-collar educated households, including very high income households (West Plano). Memorial City / CityCentre, probably Houston's most successful activity center at present, builds its success on a similar foundation. In addition, walkable mixed-use environments have proven very popular for the relocation anchors, and DFW has led Houston in this regard because of visionary local developers and cities that often had to be convinced to CHANGE the existing zoning - seems like zoning was more of a hindrance than a help in that regard.

You do realize that in addition to the thoroughfare plan, the City of Houston's Subdivision ordinance, Infrastructure Standards, and Parking ordinance also apply in the unincorporated ETJ? I'm not saying those rules are crafted well, but there's a lot more than just the Thoroughfare Plan in the ETJ.

DFW is also fortunate to have had more pre-existing exurban towns with historic downtowns to build upon. The Houston area had a relative lack of those, and those that were there (apart from Galveston and Conroe) were just less substantial than those in DFW. Zoning had no role in that.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

No question that DFW has "eclipsed" Houston economically since 2015, thanks to the economic diversity noted by JL, and Houston's less animated growth and relocation activity after the Thanksgiving 2014 oil bust. But "generations ago"? No, both metros were fairly in lockstep through the decades. And I would personally say that while Dallas city did a better job of preserving elements of its walkable urbanity in core neighborhoods outside Downtown, Houston had a more active CBD until recently and, most importantly, earlier and more widespread urban redevelopment and revitalization around the city, thanks in significant part to the lack of zoning.

And Houston has remained one of the fastest growing metros in the country since the end of the 80s oil bust.

Houston has outgrown DFW during some of that time. Overall DFW has grown more because of its more diverse economy. Both are almost certain to surpass the Chicago MSA in the next 20 years and will be the 3rd and 4th largest metros in the country.

[LocalPlanner]

Oh, and for the umpteenth time, I'm not against incorporation of unincorporated suburban areas. It could bring a lot of benefits. But zoning, at least traditional land use / density zoning, is definitely NOT one of them.