Houston "The Great Unzoned City." (Dallas, Pasadena: condo, neighborhood)

[ParaguaneroSwag]

Not that I care. I honestly think arguing this is asinine (pick which you like more and be quiet. You won’t change anyones opinion). But if Houstonians want to be happy, the Houston metro is more populated than the DFW metro in the UN’s study. There’s many different ways to measure metro area and none are the “official” method. Each country’s home census uses different methodology to decide their how to group their metro areas based on the studies of their country.

[usc619]

Originally Posted by DabOnEm

Yeah but even those middle/working class DFW burbs are move liveable than their unincorporated counterparts in Houston. The ones in DFW often come with a local downtown area nearby (and many of these are building themselves up to be quite nice), along with basic living amenities like sidewalks, sensor street lights instead timed (which can often be wastes of time!), and faster emergency responses.

Shhh folks like to overlook this fact. Desoto, Duncanville, Cedar Hill, Mansfield, Wylie, garland, Rockwall, Arlington, etc… all are well planned zoned middle class cities

[DabOnEm]

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

That's a very big assertion to make (bolded statement). I've never seen a single shred of evidence to support it. Plano, Frisco, Richardson, and Irving (well, one part of Irving) are successful with relocations because of access to a concentration of pre-existing white-collar educated households, including very high income households (West Plano). Memorial City / CityCentre, probably Houston's most successful activity center at present, builds its success on a similar foundation. In addition, walkable mixed-use environments have proven very popular for the relocation anchors, and DFW has led Houston in this regard because of visionary local developers and cities that often had to be convinced to CHANGE the existing zoning - seems like zoning was more of a hindrance than a help in that regard.

It is well known the master planned feel of the north Dallas suburbs made it an attractive place for relocation. There are several articles at your disposal if you care to google it.

You do realize that in addition to the thoroughfare plan, the City of Houston's Subdivision ordinance, Infrastructure Standards, and Parking ordinance also apply in the unincorporated ETJ? I'm not saying those rules are crafted well, but there's a lot more than just the Thoroughfare Plan in the ETJ.

Still nothing compared to what actual cities can do.

DFW is also fortunate to have had more pre-existing exurban towns with historic downtowns to build upon. The Houston area had a relative lack of those, and those that were there (apart from Galveston and Conroe) were just less substantial than those in DFW. Zoning had no role in that.

False. There were several cores around the area but they were paved over and/or not kept up. Hard to do when there is no city attached to the area. Old Town Spring is barely hanging on but imagine what it would look like if unincorporated Spring was a city? Or the old Alief town plot being built up if the Alief area was its own city. Would some of the Cypress area shopping centers along 290 be conglomerated into one walkable area if there was one municipality up there with control? La Centerrs moved over to downtown Katy? Multiple this all over the Houston area.

And besides the areas without traditional downtowns are building ones from scratch, like Farmers Branch or Southlake in DFW. Houston tries to mimic this with places like Vintage Park but it doesnt have the same standard, and I say thats partly due to no zoning/unincorporated bs.

Originally Posted by usc619

Shhh folks like to overlook this fact. Desoto, Duncanville, Cedar Hill, Mansfield, Wylie, garland, Rockwall, Arlington, etc… all are well planned zoned middle class cities

I've asked before to show me an unincorporated area of Houston and its DFW equivalent and I could tell you why the DFW municipality would be better off. Like all the suburbs you named are working/middle class and they all have walkable downtown districts of various sizes, better connectivity within the city, and decades long detailed plans on the city. Houston could have more of this but annexation and no zoning to the fringes took hold.

Of course no one ever offers a comparison.

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by usc619

Shhh folks like to overlook this fact. Desoto, Duncanville, Cedar Hill, Mansfield, Wylie, garland, Rockwall, Arlington, etc… all are well planned zoned middle class cities

Well-planned, perhaps. But planning <> zoning. The idea that a well-planned city, as these might be, requires zoning is fallacious.

[gwarnecke]

My feelings about zoning are mixed...I appreciate the creative mix of uses that have evolved in some of Houston's older neighborhoods, and in principle I prefer government intervention in the development of privately-owned land be kept to a practical minimum. But I've owned three houses in the Houston area, and in all three cases I've "voted with my $" and selected single-family residential homes surrounded by almost exclusively single-family residential homes, enforced by either deed restrictions or the Village gov't. I think the following points bear repeating:

-While a lack of zoning has contributed to the development of some of Houston's most-characterful areas, mostly inside the loop, it has also lead to some bizarre juxtapositions that, while curious, generally don't make for desirable places to live. Spring Branch is probably the best example of this. In addition to the infamous 2016 warehouse fire and 2020 Watson's explosion, you've also got unzoned pockets of SB where one block will have a church, a used car dealership, a warehouse, a bail bonds business, a run-down apartment complex, and brand-new $400k townhomes.
-Overall, the impact of Houston not having zoning is very much tempered by both our numerous development regulations (parking minimums, etc) and by the fact that, by area, a tremendous % of Houston's land is locked up in low-density single-family residential developments, and changing this would require a major shift in land values / buyer preferences (unlikely) and the abolition of deed restrictions concerning land use (even less likely). In other words - 95%+ of low-density single-family residential neighborhoods in the Houston area will still be low-density single-family residential developments long after I'm dead.

[DabOnEm]

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

Well-planned, perhaps. But planning <> zoning. The idea that a well-planned city, as these might be, requires zoning is fallacious.

Again, zoning is very much a part of that planning. Just because it is "technically not" planning doesnt mean it is never included when city plans are made.

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by DabOnEm

Again, zoning is very much a part of that planning. Just because it is "technically not" planning doesnt mean it is never included when city plans are made.

Again, good planning doesn't require zoning. That is a factual statement, not up for debate. I actually have a graduate degree in planning, and that is something students learn as part of the core curriculum.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by gwarnecke

My feelings about zoning are mixed...I appreciate the creative mix of uses that have evolved in some of Houston's older neighborhoods, and in principle I prefer government intervention in the development of privately-owned land be kept to a practical minimum. But I've owned three houses in the Houston area, and in all three cases I've "voted with my $" and selected single-family residential homes surrounded by almost exclusively single-family residential homes, enforced by either deed restrictions or the Village gov't. I think the following points bear repeating:

-While a lack of zoning has contributed to the development of some of Houston's most-characterful areas, mostly inside the loop, it has also lead to some bizarre juxtapositions that, while curious, generally don't make for desirable places to live. Spring Branch is probably the best example of this. In addition to the infamous 2016 warehouse fire and 2020 Watson's explosion, you've also got unzoned pockets of SB where one block will have a church, a used car dealership, a warehouse, a bail bonds business, a run-down apartment complex, and brand-new $400k townhomes.
-Overall, the impact of Houston not having zoning is very much tempered by both our numerous development regulations (parking minimums, etc) and by the fact that, by area, a tremendous % of Houston's land is locked up in low-density single-family residential developments, and changing this would require a major shift in land values / buyer preferences (unlikely) and the abolition of deed restrictions concerning land use (even less likely). In other words - 95%+ of low-density single-family residential neighborhoods in the Houston area will still be low-density single-family residential developments long after I'm dead.

Spring Branch is an example of bad planning, not zoning issues. It would have been redeveloped in the 80s and 90s if not for Houston's lack of sewer capacity. They had to basically stop development in Spring Branch so they could continue to develop inside the loop. As a result, it deteriorated.

[SanJac]

Originally Posted by bu2

Spring Branch is an example of bad planning, not zoning issues. It would have been redeveloped in the 80s and 90s if not for Houston's lack of sewer capacity. They had to basically stop development in Spring Branch so they could continue to develop inside the loop. As a result, it deteriorated.

I understand the desire for zoning. I grew up in unincorporated Harris County so I'm used to the "eclectic " nature of Houston. I see a doctor in Bellaire. I drive through a beautiful neighborhood off the loop. Then eventually hit a pocket of apartments/condos. Then turn on a street that has a body shop with about 50 cars in its parking lot spilling into the street. Is this poor planning or the lack of zoning?

[WRM20]

Originally Posted by bu2

Spring Branch is an example of bad planning, not zoning issues. It would have been redeveloped in the 80s and 90s if not for Houston's lack of sewer capacity. They had to basically stop development in Spring Branch so they could continue to develop inside the loop. As a result, it deteriorated.

Development inside the Loop was stopped for 20 or more years due to sewer capacity. That's one reason Midtown took so long to start redeveloping.