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I like your planning and forethought. A lot can change in the years you will be in grad school and the military, but assuming your mindset stays constant, Indiana could be a welcome change. I lived in Indiana almost my entire life until I relocated to California a few years ago. I grew up in Carmel.
Indiana is a good place to raise a family, but like very place, you would want to visit and make your own determinations if it's a fit. If you live in Indianapolis proper, you will find yourself in a blue city that's much more inline with NYC than rural Indiana.
Low cost of living: Indiana is less expensive overall, but wages are lower that many other regions of the country. There is a lot of affordable housing, which is appealing. If you want to live in Carmel, a lot of the houses there are way above the average of the state or metro area.
Property Taxes: Indiana has a constitutional amendment to cap property taxes at 1% of the assessed value. It can be over that if it's a rental property or if a "special assessment" is in place. This is about in line with California. Indiana doesn't have tax stamps like NY.
I will leave the political constituency alone as I don't currently live there. Gun culture....you aren't going to find a lot of "gun pride" in city proper or the northern suburbs.
Flat state income tax. Yes, it's 3.23%. The average total state tax burden is more than this as every county also assesses a tax, and some localities add another. Marion County is minimum 5.23%. And that starts on the first dollar you earn. (Spoiler alert: it's not low compared to other states)
Drivers: People in Indiana drive like a bat out of hell most of the time, especially in the suburbs.
Thank you for your point by point response, it's very informative and I appreciate it. You are completely correct in that 5-6 years is plenty of time for priorities to change, I'm preparing for the possibility. I just know what I want very well, considering I've wanted the same things since childhood. Maybe Indiana will no longer represent the kind of state I'd want to relocate to in that time, anything's possible.
Raising a family is the top priority, and hearing that Indiana and many of its communities are a great place to do this earns major points in my book. Good schools, clean streets, an involved community--that kind of framework. Of course, I would only make a consequential decision after a fair share of visits, like you suggested.
I've noticed there are three such suburbs/communities directly north of Indianapolis that fit my description, which I think is really convenient. They are Carmel, Fishers, and Zionsville--and from my research of them thus far, I'm liking what I see. I realize they are upper crust, as tends to be the case in suburbs near a state's capitol. I've mentioned before why it's important to my professional aspirations to be close to a state's capitol, and so if I can find a community that is close by, it's very encouraging. In terms of affording it, I know I'll be able receive a loan with no down payment required thanks to the "VA Home Loan" benefit, therefore purchasing the home won't be the biggest obstacle insomuch as keeping up with the monthly payments and any such maintenance costs. The fact that I keep hearing how the COL in Indiana is low will undoubtedly help me make such payments.
In regards to the lower than average wages of Indiana: I checked the wages of teachers in Indianapolis, Carmel Clay Schools District (serving Carmel), and Hamilton Southeastern School District (serving Fishers), and they've shown that teachers with my education level (Master's, or at least soon to be) and years of experience (2 years) make between 48k-54k a year. Truthfully I'm not sure if Indiana educators get the income hikes after years of experience like other states, as I've read that Indiana is implementing merit-pay for teachers (or already has implemented it, not sure). Regardless, while this income isn't as high as educators in other states, I think that I'd still be able to afford payments on a 3-4 bedroom home in one of the suburbs I've mentioned (this is also assuming that my would-be spouse will at least have some part time work). I've been perusing Realtor and Zillow and found a couple of viable options that would fit this budget. Who knows how all these numbers will fluctuate in the coming years, so we'll see.
I know my posts haven't implied as such, but I tend not to wear my politics on my sleeve in day to day interactions. I only get into it if the topic comes up or if someone asks specifically, as I am involved in political work. I like that suburbs tend to adopt the same attitude--at least that I've seen from my experiences--of being reserved Republicans in day to day activities, only getting active and openly displaying their affiliation(s) during an election season. I realize that suburbs in close proximity to Indianapolis, or any state capitol, will more likely feature moderate Republicans than staunch conservatives. That's fine by me, I get along with them great. I'd be counting on their vote one day, after all
No worries about the gun culture, I'm not pervasive about it. It is probably my favorite hobby though and heck, if I can find sport-shooting enthusiasts in the suburbs of NYC, I'm certain I can find some in central Indiana.
If you're willing, would you mind describing what Carmel was like, as well as any similar areas nearby? Any perspective is greatly valued. Thanks!
Last edited by MillennialMaverick; 03-22-2018 at 09:19 PM..
Are you looking to be a teacher? I was a bit confused because I thought you were looking for something more political but then you mentioned teachers salaries. If you are looking to be a teacher, know that in the school districts you mentioned, competition is tough for any open teaching jobs. They are highly sought-after positions for teachers because of the districts and so it can be hard to get a job as one there. But if you were just looking at it for comparable salary and won't be looking for a teaching job, then this doesn't really matter.
It sounds like you may be at home in any of the northern suburbs. Depending on where your job is, you could consider Noblesville, too. It's the city north of Fishers and is rapidly growing as well. Noblesville is older with a very nice downtown reminiscent of old Midwest downtowns and is still very lively lined with restaurants and shops and host to festivals, street parties, and car cruise-ins in the summer. It's also the only suburb that I'm aware of that still charges for street parking downtown during the day. The central area between SR 37 and the river is older as it was a bigger city long before the other northern suburbs came along. But a lot of subidivions have sprung up outside of that area. However, if you work in downtown Indy, that can be a bit of a drive. Once the SR 37 project is complete to upgrade it to a freeway with interchanges in a few years, it won't be as bad, but would still require a trip down I-69 which is one of the most heavily traveled sections of highway in Indiana.
There are gun enthusiasts. I know of a gun club with shooting range by our house in Fishers. I know of a shooting range in Carmel. And there's an outdoor gun range (Indiana Gun Club) by my parent's house on the east side of Fishers. Anytime it's basically not raining, you can hear distant gunshots from their house.
I live on the border of Fishers and Noblesville and work in Carmel so I feel quite familiar with both areas. Been here for over 10 years so if there's anything in particular you want to know, I can try to help.
That's music to my ears, I prefer religion and politics to be separate. I actually have no idea how religion became the main subject here, it doesn't factor at all in my decision making process of choosing a state, unless it's presence may close opportunities for me.
Believe me when I say that I am much more of the "practical, business-minded" conservativsm that you mention than any religious conservatism. I consider myself a policy wonk, moral preening and virtue signaling doesn't drive my ideals or values. My political ideology and religious beliefs are separate. Mike Pence is not an example of the type of conservative I am or the type of policies I subscribe to. If I were to choose specific American political figures to describe my politics, then I would be choose figures like Calvin Coolidge, Robert Taft Sr., and Ron/Rand Paul style conservatism--not the Mike Pence style.
Though I do get why Mike Pence keeps coming up, despite me never mentioning him or religion in my OP. He's definitely Indiana's most famous politician by today's measures.
Since it's been brought up a few times now, I would like to state that religion has NO bearing on my decision making process. I don't care who my neighbors worship, so long as they are respectful to others. I extend that same courtesy to them.
You say you've lived in Carmel for 3 years, would you mind telling me a bit about your experience there?
Carmel is one of, if not the, most affluent communities in the state. I rented. Send me a direct message if you want the name of the apartment complex. It was a bit older, but a good value, safe, and in a great location.
I initially worked at an office complex in Indianapolis a few hundred yards into the city limits, then further on in the city at a place called Keystone at the Crossing. I also worked in Fishers for about six months before moving back to Tennessee.
Things I liked:
1) Being from Tennessee, I had never lived in a community this nice. There's nothing as nice as Carmel in the entire state other than a few Nashville suburbs. Everything is very well maintained and orderly. Many houses are in HOAs, and that keeps the neighborhood nice. Properties are maintained. Crime is practically nonexistent. Traffic enforcement is aggressive. I also had Monon Trail access from my apartment. There are walking trails galore.
Some highlights to check out - downtown, Palladium (concert hall - friend of mine is the ex-husband of the guy who opened it), Monon Trail, Monon Center and its adjacent water park (this is a gym owned and operated by the city government - think of a new YMCA. Water park is summer only but free for Monon members)
2) Everything you need on a daily basis is in Carmel. It isn't necessarily a sleepy suburb where you have to go back to Indy for everything. I had the following grocery stores within five minutes of my apartment. They are in Carmel or Westfield. Groceries are inexpensive in Indiana compared to Tennessee.
1) Whole Foods
2) Earthfare
3) Fresh Market
4) Local butcher
5) Kroger "Marketplace" - this is a much larger, upscale Kroger around the size of a Target. It smokes any store I've ever been in.
6) Marsh (regional mainline grocery - now OOB)
7) Meijer
8) Super Target
9) Super Walmart
10) Aldi
There is also a small outdoor mall (Clay Terrace) in Carmel. There are plenty of dining options - there is everything from some upscale, local dining, to national chains, to more upscale chains like Mitchell's Fish Market and Prime 47.
Costco, Sam's Club, Trader Joe's are relatively short drives away in Indianapolis and you do not have to go far in the city to get them. You're also a quick drive to the Fashion Mall at Keystone (upscale mall) and Castleton Square Mall (mainstream mall).
3) Carmel is also becoming a large job center in its own right. After downtown Indy, it is either second or third for jobs in the metro, in a toss-up with the Keystone at the Crossing area. If you work there and can afford it, live there.
4) The schools are very large, but good quality. If you think you may want to settle down and have kids in a few years, you won't need to move again.
5) Carmel is expensive by the standards of the area, but for what it is, it is an incredible value. You can generally get a nice townhome for under $200,000, and there are some condos that are well under that, but may need some cosmetic work. Nearby Fishers and Westfield are less expensive, but they have much less of a community feel, and just seem more "thrown together" in my opinion.
Still, you can't go wrong with any of these communities from a standpoint of day-to-day livability. They attract the "right" kind of people.
There's not much I didn't like about Carmel. I had some complaints about the time I was there and central Indiana overall.
1) If you're into outdoor recreation like hiking, boating, mountain biking, fishing, etc., central Indiana is just bland. There's no way around it. Coming from the mountains, lakes, and rivers of northeast TN and western NC was a major adjustment for me.
2) Traffic within Carmel isn't that bad, but if you need to get on the beltway (465) at rush hour, it can be a pain. I-69 in Fishers can also inch along. I didn't have to get on 465 for my daily commute, but I did to see my girlfriend in Anderson. Going to/from downtown at rush hour can also be bad. If you're used to NYC traffic, it will be inconsequential, but it was frustrating coming from small town Tennessee. It's big city traffic.
3) Roads. The conditions of the roads in Indianapolis and Indiana overall are absolutely disgraceful. There have been numerous articles on it this year. Carmel/Hamilton County is somewhat better. This was my biggest complaint.
4) Taxes. Again, for a New Yorker, taxes will seem low. For a Tennessean, they were high. As mentioned, you pay a state tax and a county tax. This will work out to be between 5%-6% on every dollar you make. On a $60,000 annual income, I paid somewhere between $160-$180/month in state income taxes. Coming from a state with no income tax, and especially given the road conditions, it felt like I got nothing for the money. I really didn't mind paying the county tax because Hamilton County is nice.
Registration taxes are also based on the value of the car. My 2013 Elantra cost nearly $500 to register in 2014, but was down to ~$160 in 2016. An expensive car could cost a grand to register. The same coverage with State Farm in Carmel was about half of what I pay in Tennessee.
Getting into a state park is either $7 or $9 per visit, though I think you can buy an annual pass for about $50.
5) There can be a bit of a snobby vibe among some people. It's an affluent place with a lot of successful people. Some will have attitudes about it.
At 23, I don't know if I'd move to Carmel, especially if I was single. I was 28 when I moved there in 2014. There's not much of a social scene for people in their 20s. Carmel is definitely geared toward families, and has a smattering of older, fairly affluent divorcees. You have to go back into the city for a singles scene - downtown, Broad Ripple (more of a college/right out of scene), Fountain Square, Irvington.
It makes no sense to live in Noblesville if the job is in Plainfield. There's no point in driving all around 465. The metro is very spread out.
Overall, I'd definitely move back if I was going to raise a family.
Overall I agree with most of what has been stated. I live and work in Hamilton County, in the cities mentioned.
Re: religion - I wouldn't get too comfortable thinking it's a non-factor here, even in the north suburbs. There are a ton of churches here, including large and mega-churches. Police direct traffic in some places before/after services to make sure all the vehicles can enter/exit. I can't tell how "live and let live" things really are - I'm agnostic, but I generally don't tell people that (unless I know they are of the same stripes) or make a big deal of it, they may or may not figure it out, and I've had at least a couple people distance themselves from me once they realized I was not one of them. Church/faith is a big part of people's lives here, moreso than when I was growing up in a different Midwest state where church was more of a formality.
Since you are talking about raising a family... the high schools in Carmel and Fishers are big. Carmel's has 5000 students, Fishers has two high schools of about 2000-3000 students each. Just be aware of that, it's not going to be the "small town high school" feel.
Are you looking to be a teacher? I was a bit confused because I thought you were looking for something more political but then you mentioned teachers salaries. If you are looking to be a teacher, know that in the school districts you mentioned, competition is tough for any open teaching jobs. They are highly sought-after positions for teachers because of the districts and so it can be hard to get a job as one there. But if you were just looking at it for comparable salary and won't be looking for a teaching job, then this doesn't really matter.
It sounds like you may be at home in any of the northern suburbs. Depending on where your job is, you could consider Noblesville, too. It's the city north of Fishers and is rapidly growing as well. Noblesville is older with a very nice downtown reminiscent of old Midwest downtowns and is still very lively lined with restaurants and shops and host to festivals, street parties, and car cruise-ins in the summer. It's also the only suburb that I'm aware of that still charges for street parking downtown during the day. The central area between SR 37 and the river is older as it was a bigger city long before the other northern suburbs came along. But a lot of subidivions have sprung up outside of that area. However, if you work in downtown Indy, that can be a bit of a drive. Once the SR 37 project is complete to upgrade it to a freeway with interchanges in a few years, it won't be as bad, but would still require a trip down I-69 which is one of the most heavily traveled sections of highway in Indiana.
There are gun enthusiasts. I know of a gun club with shooting range by our house in Fishers. I know of a shooting range in Carmel. And there's an outdoor gun range (Indiana Gun Club) by my parent's house on the east side of Fishers. Anytime it's basically not raining, you can hear distant gunshots from their house.
I live on the border of Fishers and Noblesville and work in Carmel so I feel quite familiar with both areas. Been here for over 10 years so if there's anything in particular you want to know, I can try to help.
Thank you for your gracious reply, this was very helpful. Indeed, in the OP I mentioned I am currently a teacher and planned to be involved in education as my primary career until I see an opportunity to make my foray into politics. I feel it's absolutely necessary considering that no political work can be guaranteed. It's a high risk-high reward prospect, and so it's prudent to have an existing/primary career before running for an elected position--as most politicians do.
Ah yes I've seen Noblesville on the map and planned to check it out, just didn't get around to it yet. If it's anything like Carmel or Fishers, then that's great. Travel to downtown Indianapolis will depend on what work I can find, I have seen that the state Capitol is in downtown Indianapolis. I'll just have to deal with it.
Well that's great to hear about the gun clubs and ranges within the area. I prefer outdoors shooting to indoor, as it tends to be more comfortable, intimate, and easy on the ears. Also I probably wouldn't shoot within the neighborhood itself haha, out of courtesy for my neighbors. I know Indiana is probably more gun friendly than most states, but it'd still be unpleasant hearing distant shots fired when you're trying to unwind in your home. My dream would be to get organized with a group of enthusiasts and build a range just outside the area. Or rather, join an existing one, if that's an option. If I would live in a rural area, heck I'd just build a range in my backyard. Doesn't get more convenient or intimate than that. But such is the sacrifice we make for being part of a community
Seems like you are familiar with all the areas I'm interested in, I will definitely take you up on your offer if & when I get more questions to inquire about. Perhaps through DM? Thanks for all your help!
@Serious Conversation and @IndyDancer I have read your responses and will comment later today--currently at work. As you guys can tell, I enjoy giving thoughtful and detailed responses, and so I plan to. Thank you both!
And may I just say something, I am VERY impressed by how courteous and gracious you guys on the Indiana forum have been thus far. I've been on forums for other states, and it can get straight up hostile there: insults hurled, circular dogmatic arguments, etc. Just wanted to say that I'm grateful for all of your contributions thus far.
Thank you for your gracious reply, this was very helpful. Indeed, in the OP I mentioned I am currently a teacher and planned to be involved in education as my primary career until I see an opportunity to make my foray into politics. I feel it's absolutely necessary considering that no political work can be guaranteed. It's a high risk-high reward prospect, and so it's prudent to have an existing/primary career before running for an elected position--as most politicians do.
Ah yes I've seen Noblesville on the map and planned to check it out, just didn't get around to it yet. If it's anything like Carmel or Fishers, then that's great. Travel to downtown Indianapolis will depend on what work I can find, I have seen that the state Capitol is in downtown Indianapolis. I'll just have to deal with it.
Well that's great to hear about the gun clubs and ranges within the area. I prefer outdoors shooting to indoor, as it tends to be more comfortable, intimate, and easy on the ears. Also I probably wouldn't shoot within the neighborhood itself haha, out of courtesy for my neighbors. I know Indiana is probably more gun friendly than most states, but it'd still be unpleasant hearing distant shots fired when you're trying to unwind in your home. My dream would be to get organized with a group of enthusiasts and build a range just outside the area. Or rather, join an existing one, if that's an option. If I would live in a rural area, heck I'd just build a range in my backyard. Doesn't get more convenient or intimate than that. But such is the sacrifice we make for being part of a community
Seems like you are familiar with all the areas I'm interested in, I will definitely take you up on your offer if & when I get more questions to inquire about. Perhaps through DM? Thanks for all your help!
Carmel and Fishers are not the kinds of places where you're going to hear someone out shooting in their backyard. There are exceptions, but the houses are generally too close together for that.
Noblesville is a little different than the others. It is the the county seat and has historically been more separate from Indy. It has an older traditional downtown, but there's still dining and such there. The White River is right there and there's a pretty park near the downtown IIRC.
You're starting to see the sprawl from Fishers come up 37 into Noblesville, but it isn't anywhere near as crowded. It's also a good bit more reasonable.
WRT "live and let live," I was thinking more in general terms than religion specifically. A few incidents come to mind from nextdoor.com where posts provoked a fury that had the feel of real irritation, not snarky virtue-signaling.
One in particular was when a neighbor started a thread saying he'd called the police about a man living in an RV in an abandoned parking lot by the highway. RV Man, as he came to be known, apparently worked as a cab driver. The police hadn't done anything (apparently, neither had RV Man). The neighbor got an earful--dozens of people asked why it was any of his business, especially since it was four miles from his house.
This was in the city of Indianapolis. Still, I work at a professional firm in Carmel, and I can't think of any of my coworkers who'd have called the police on RV Man.
WRT "live and let live," I was thinking more in general terms than religion specifically. A few incidents come to mind from nextdoor.com where posts provoked a fury that had the feel of real irritation, not snarky virtue-signaling.
One in particular was when a neighbor started a thread saying he'd called the police about a man living in an RV in an abandoned parking lot by the highway. RV Man, as he came to be known, apparently worked as a cab driver. The police hadn't done anything (apparently, neither had RV Man). The neighbor got an earful--dozens of people asked why it was any of his business, especially since it was four miles from his house.
This was in the city of Indianapolis. Still, I work at a professional firm in Carmel, and I can't think of any of my coworkers who'd have called the police on RV Man.
I agree with those who gave the "concerned citizen" an earful; it was none of his business, nor is it something that warrants calling the police.
Overall I agree with most of what has been stated. I live and work in Hamilton County, in the cities mentioned.
Re: religion - I wouldn't get too comfortable thinking it's a non-factor here, even in the north suburbs. There are a ton of churches here, including large and mega-churches. Police direct traffic in some places before/after services to make sure all the vehicles can enter/exit. I can't tell how "live and let live" things really are - I'm agnostic, but I generally don't tell people that (unless I know they are of the same stripes) or make a big deal of it, they may or may not figure it out, and I've had at least a couple people distance themselves from me once they realized I was not one of them. Church/faith is a big part of people's lives here, moreso than when I was growing up in a different Midwest state where church was more of a formality.
Since you are talking about raising a family... the high schools in Carmel and Fishers are big. Carmel's has 5000 students, Fishers has two high schools of about 2000-3000 students each. Just be aware of that, it's not going to be the "small town high school" feel.
Oh I know it's a factor in the communities, I just meant it's not a factor for me personally when looking at a location. I'm not really interested on whether other people are religious or not, I'm only concerned with my own practice of it.
I'm personally fine with the abundance of churches, just means I'm more likely to find a place of worship that I like. Probably meet some fellow-minded folks.
Ah, now regarding the school size I did not know. I have experience working in a high school with 5000+ students. It can be challenging, though I've checked Carmel's school's ratings (performance evaluations, test scores, graduation rates) and it's very impressive. They seem to be doing very well despite the large student body.
Last edited by MillennialMaverick; 03-23-2018 at 11:49 PM..
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