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(btw, I received numerous direct messages, some from non-Jews, thanking me for starting this thread. Ironic how it's the Jews who find this thread so threatening.)
I'm sure that's very comforting, but you give yourself far too much credit if you actually believe that anyone here finds your thread threatening.
I spent my last Shabbat like I spend all my Shabbats - meeting with teenagers and young adults going through cancer treatment (typically bone marrow/stem cell transplants, but sometimes just hospitalizations or in-patient chemo). If G-d wanted me to rest, he would not have given me and then allowed me to survive cancer which requires me 1) to work more than is healthy in order to pay my medical bills and 2) help others see the light at the end of the tunnel for their treatment. Since I do believe things happen for a reason, I can't believe that G-d places as much importance on ritual as many believe, particularly when the ritual prevents service to others.
I spent my last Shabbat like I spend all my Shabbats - meeting with teenagers and young adults going through cancer treatment (typically bone marrow/stem cell transplants, but sometimes just hospitalizations or in-patient chemo). If G-d wanted me to rest, he would not have given me and then allowed me to survive cancer which requires me 1) to work more than is healthy in order to pay my medical bills and 2) help others see the light at the end of the tunnel for their treatment. Since I do believe things happen for a reason, I can't believe that G-d places as much importance on ritual as many believe, particularly when the ritual prevents service to others.
I'm curious how the "ritual" of Shabbos prevents you from meeting with these young cancer survivors the other 6 days of the week? Why transgress a Torah commandment, given from Hashem directly to you, when you have so many other opportunities the other 6 days of the week to do the same activity and please Hashem?
And just so I understanmd the mindset... When a Jew directly contradicts a mitzvah in the Torah (usually when they have made a personal judgement that their own reasoning for doing something, like working on Shabbos, takes precedence over what Hashem has asked of us), do you typically view it as:
1) "I'm really a free agent when it comes to my actions, and the Torah is not really a consideration."
or
2) "I know Hashem doesn't want me to work on Shabbos, as it says so in the Torah, but I'm just not at that point where I can change my life that way."
And just so I understanmd the mindset... When a Jew directly contradicts a mitzvah in the Torah (usually when they have made a personal judgement that their own reasoning for doing something, like working on Shabbos, takes precedence over what Hashem has asked of us), do you typically view it as:
1) "I'm really a free agent when it comes to my actions, and the Torah is not really a consideration."
or
2) "I know Hashem doesn't want me to work on Shabbos, as it says so in the Torah, but I'm just not at that point where I can change my life that way."
Speaking of mindset, I missed the verse where God instructs the Israel not to perform acts of service and loving kindness on Shabbat.
Speaking of mindset, I missed the verse where God instructs the Israel not to perform acts of service and loving kindness on Shabbat.
Acts of loving kindness on Shabbos do not supercede the obligation to avoid the 39 classifications of "work" on Shabbos. It is not permissible to violate one mitzvah in order to fulfill another (except in very rare instances detailed in the Talmud). One can do all the loving kindness one wants to do on Shabbos, as long as it does not violate the obligations of Shabbos. C'mon, that's pshat.
Acts of loving kindness on Shabbos do not supercede the obligation to avoid the 39 classifications of "work" on Shabbos. It is not permissible to violate one mitzvah in order to fulfill another ...
And I don't grant you or yours the authority to determine what constitutes a violation or to judge those Jews you deem to be inferior to you.
And I don't grant you or yours the authority to determine what constitutes a violation or to judge those Jews you deem to be inferior to you.
Could someone besides JS answer this question of mine: Where did I "judge" or deem someone "inferior?" Is stating the halacha the same as being judgemental or deeming somebody inferior?
Could someone besides JS answer this question of mine: Where did I "judge" or deem someone "inferior?" Is stating the halacha the same as being judgemental or deeming somebody inferior?
No ... but pompous garbage such as:
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop
.., do you typically view it as:
1) "I'm really a free agent when it comes to my actions, and the Torah is not really a consideration."
or
2) "I know Hashem doesn't want me to work on Shabbos, as it says so in the Torah, but I'm just not at that point where I can change my life that way."
is more than a little disgusting. The Torah is not in heaven and, in my opinion, charolastra00 is doing a far better job honoring its spirit than you.
No ... but pompous garbage such as:is more than a little disgusting. The Torah is not in heaven and, in my opinion, charolastra00 is doing a far better job honoring its spirit than you.
Speaking as a non-Jew I appreciate reading the views of everyone. I think that to gain an insight of Judaism us non-Jews need to see the views of various followers of Judaism.
Your religion covers a very wide expanse of opinions. I think this dialogue serves to help us non-Jews see you all as individuals and that helps break any stereotypes.
I appreciate reading the views of all of you. I may like the views of some more than the views of others. but I value all the views. Some times a little disagreement serves to show the human side of people.
I hope every one sees this forum as an opportunity to learn that the stereotypes are wrong.
[An oven] that was cut into parts and sand was placed between the parts, Rabbi Eliezer maintained that it is pure (i.e., not susceptible to ritual impurity). The other sages said that it is susceptible to ritual impurity....
On that day, Rabbi Eliezer brought them all sorts of proofs, but they were rejected. Said he to them: "If the law is as I say, may the carob tree prove it." The carob tree was uprooted from its place a distance of 100 cubits. Others say, 400 cubits. Said they to him: "One cannot prove anything from a carob tree."
Said [Rabbi Eliezer] to them: "If the law is as I say, may the aqueduct prove it." The water in the aqueduct began to flow backwards. Saidthey to him: "One cannot prove anything from an aqueduct."
Said he to them: "If the law is as I say, then may the walls of the house of study prove it." The walls of the house of study began to cave in. Rabbi Joshua rebuked them, "If Torah scholars are debating a point of Jewish law, what are your qualifications to intervene?" The walls did not fall, in deference to Rabbi Joshua, nor did they straighten up, in deference to Rabbi Eliezer. They still stand there at a slant.
Said he to them: "If the law is as I say, may it be proven from heaven!" There then issued a heavenly voice which proclaimed: "What do you want of Rabbi Eliezer -- the law is as he says..."
Rabbi Joshua stood on his feet and said: "'The Torah is not in heaven!" ... We take no notice of heavenly voices, since You, G-d, have already, at Sinai, written in the Torah to "follow the majority."
Rabbi Nathan subsequently met Elijah the Prophet and asked him: "What did G-d do at that moment?" [Elijah] replied: "He smiled and said: 'My children have triumphed over Me, My children have triumphed over Me.'"
My apologies to Woodrow and others who would have not recognized the reference in my previous post. It's a great and widely known little story (midrash) and deservedly so - especially when counterposed to the bibliolatry that too often characterizes theological discourse.
The bottom line is that theflipflop's false dilemma - to paraphrase ...
Screw Torah. [or]
Screw God.
was contemptuous and disingenuous in the extreme. He has every right to observe Shabbat the way he does. He has absolutely no right to denigrate charolastra00 for doing likewise. Her service should be applauded.
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