Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
100,000- that is ridiculous! Doctors make more because they go to school for much longer and most take classes that far exceed teachers' classes in difficulty. Most work a full calendar year also.
And pay for mel-practice insurance. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
The only insurance a teacher needs is to cover their lawyer after they get busted for statutory raping one of their students. Oh wait, no worry, the union will provide the lawyer.
And pay for mel-practice insurance. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
The only insurance a teacher needs is to cover their lawyer after they get busted for statutory raping one of their students. Oh wait, no worry, the union will provide the lawyer.
Okay, yes, it's common knowledge that teaching and being a doctor are difficult in their own ways.
HOWEVER,
Let's not beat around the bush with doctors (and everyone involved with healthcare industry)....you all know you're overpaid and you're only overpaid because the insurance companies you make deals with and sleep with have a monopoly on people's health in this country.
If healthcare was more regulated by the government doctors wages would go down if drug $$$ went down and health insurance costs for consumers lowered as well.
Being a doctor is not that difficult and I'm sure if everyone in this country knew they'd have the opportunity to PAY for 7+ years of college with the potential to earn NO LESS than $100-150k annually, doctors would be commonplace and supply would far outweigh demand.
Technology Teacher! PALEEEAAAASE. The tech teacher I had in high school sat on his 500 pound FAT A** ALL day and played solitaire on his stupid computer. Ya he was worth the $80K/9 months "work" he bragged about making.
[/url]
So you had a useless technology teacher...does that make ALL technology teachers useless and uncesessary? I guess because YOU had a bad tech teacher when YOU were in high school, you are now an expert on all tech teachers? (Referring to the first sentence in my post.)
No one here has claimed that all teachers are good. There are hardworking people and slackers in EVERY profession. No one is disputing that.
Besides, my post didn't even TALK about salary (though I certainlly don't know any teachers who make $80K/year, at least not around here.) Instead, I addressed some of the soceital and economic challenges of running a school system in today's world and how it's in ALL of our best interests to be aware of what's going on.
I actually agree with some of the things said in the "union" article. I think there should be at least some degree of merit-based pay as opposed to just a straight salary schedule. I don't agree with everything the unions do and know that in MN (strong union state, much like MI, I would imagine) some teachers resent that they pretty much HAVE to join the union or be seen as social outcasts. (Even if you don't join, you still have to pay like 75% of the union dues anyway...which are not cheap, by the way.)
In response to the Stossel video, I will re-post what someone else wrote on the "comments" section of that webpage:
As a teacher of 34 years, most of that in the public school system, I have the following comments to make:
1.Teachers are not entertainers. It is the responsibility of the students and the parents/guardians of students to establish the serious nature of education. Learning is not always fun. Ask any athlete.
2.European students may laugh at the achievement of American students - but I would ask whether or not there are LD, ED and ESOL students, as well as criminals, in their classes. American teachers are required by law "include" all students in lessons, often depriving the brighter students access to upper level instruction.
3.American classrooms are often used as "daycare" on every level of school. Ask any student who is on probation; or any student who will obey a parent (for fear of being smacked around) but will not cooperate with the teacher; ask any student who comes to school to see only friends; ask any parent who believes education is a right that precludes any home responsibility.
4.American students, as a whole, probably demonstrate less achievement because, although they have been promoted throughout the grades, their academic achievement is not up to speed. Why? It is politically incorrect for a teacher to fail a student. Today's culture points the ugly finger of failure at the teacher and not at the student and his home environment.
5.Finally, Mr. Stossel, I recall your saying that teacher salaries are not too low. As a matter of fact, the salaries are just fine because teachers are still taking jobs. In response to that I say that Mr. Stossel has not done all his homework! Today, most teachers are in the bottom 25% of the graduating class; that does not even address the quality of the college. You can bet that if teaching salaries were professionally competitive, better students would become teachers.
6.Suggestion: hold students and parents legally responsible for school achievement. Teaching will become an attractive field again.
__________________________
My own comments:
I worked at a charter school in CO for 3 years (I was a mere teaching assistant for 2 of those years when I was going to grad school...much like someone earlier in this thread mentioned, I pretty much did everything the teachers did but made a whopping $8/hr.) and I can tell you that charter schools are not necessarily this educational utopia people would like you to believe. They did SOME things right (i.e., they did have merit-based pay for teachers), but being a FOR PROFIT entity it was, essentially, a business model and you could see where they cut corners to save money (i.e., they had ONE teacher copier for an entire middle school, so when it broke down you were S.O.L.) Prior to becoming a charter school, this was a low-performing public school. Now it's a low performing charter school with the same low test scores and high teacher turnover it had before.
Now, I am all about free market principles for MOST things, but there are certain things that just can't be done effectively under a business model (look at our healthcare system, for instance.) Does the public school system need improvement? Absolutely! But we need to look at the WHOLE picture. Schools are just ONE part of the interdependent American social system that has declined over the past few decades.
Last edited by MidniteBreeze; 10-19-2007 at 01:09 AM..
I think a big problem is that EVERYONE thinks they're an expert on education because at one time, they went to school. They don't understand why it costs so much to educate a child these days and why kids are graduating lacking the basic skills they need to succeed in life. Trust me, things have changed since you were in school:
Special Education. There are more kids receiving special education services than ever. Part of this is due to societal problems such as kids suffering from fetal alcohol syndrome or kids who have emotional-behavioral problems because of abuse, broken homes, etc. We also have a wider definiton of what constitutes special education. It is not just a room for the "retarded" kids anymore. All of this requires more teachers, more classroom space and a LOT of the regular ed teachers' time to attend IEP (individualzed education plan) meetings, to tailor their lesson plans according to the needs of individual students, etc. This must all be done correctly because the schools can face HUGE lawsuits if anything is overlooked. (Add to this the ever increasing numbers of ESL or non-English speaking students that schools are also required to educate and you wonder why there are funding issues and frustrations?)
Technology. If we want our kids to be competitive, they need to have a good understanding of technology (other than the ability to text message and make myspace layouts.) This requires technology teachers, classroom space for labs, technical people to maintain systems and of course the computers and software themselves, which require constant updating/replacement.
School liability: More and more pressure is being put on schools to do things that educational institutions were never expected to do before. Schools are now responsible for providing/connecting students and families with everything from healthcare to mental health to social services needs. Again, do anything "wrong" and you face a lawsuit. For example, schools are responsible for making sure no one gets bullied or teased. But if you call the bully's parents and tell them their kid is being suspended (or whatever) for bullying/teasing, then you're "labeling" or "profiling" or otherwise "discriminating" against their kid.
Society in general: the world is a complicated place and all too often it's the kids who suffer. Parents are busy trying to make ends meet and kids are often neglected and left to pretty much raise themselves. There is a general lack of discipline and lack of respect for anything or anyone some students might deem as "authority" figures. Teachers and administrators are limited in what kinds of disciplinary action they can take and since the parents often can't or won't enforce these things at home, the kids know exactly how much they can get away with. Then those same parents complain that their kids aren't learning anything...big wonder when teachers are dealing with so many kids who don't WANT to be educated (not to mention how those kids make it harder for the other kids who ARE trying to learn something!)
Another big complaint in the general community is why kids are graduating with substandard educations. For one, it is NOT easy to "hold a kid back". If the parent doesn't agree with it, you pretty much have to "shuffle" the kid off to the next grade. Of course once they get to high school they usually have to complete so many credits in order to graduate. Fail too many classes and you don't graduate on time...well, that's the way it USED to be. Trust me, you'll actually get to meet those parents who have NEVER shown up for a parent-teacher conference as soon as they get that "your child is not on track to graduate" letter. So the pressue's on to come up with a "plan" to get the kid back on track. This often consists of substandard "credit recovery" classes that are basically a big joke. Put in your time and you'll get your diploma. There are no longer any "natural" consequences for slacking off in school (that is, until you get to the real world and realize you're not qualified to do much more than flip burgers....and the cycle continues.)
On top of that add the whole NCLB issue where schools are punished for not performing on tests that kids don't give a rat's *** about. Remember, there is no money or support to HELP schools who aren't "up to par", just threats to take more money AWAY in what are usually low SES schools with little parental support to begin with. Not to mention the fact that there is no money to cover the HUGE amount of time it takes to administer and prepare for these tests. You think your child's school counselor is meeting with students to discuss post-secondary options? Nope, he/she is probably packing/unpacking boxes of tests, training test proctors, correcting student data, etc. Great use of your tax money, right? (And here again, misplace ONE test booklet and you risk having your scores invalidated.)
So I know this probably sounds like a big rant (which I guess it is), but I think it's important for people to understand what schools face these days. Again, it's a complicated world for everyone...it's hard to be a parent AND it's hard to be an educator, yet these are the most underappreciated jobs in the world, it seems. I just think we forget that we're all supposed to be on the same team here! Even if you DON'T have kids, this issue DOES affect you, your community AND the future of our nation!
I am not everyone... my wife is a public school teacher currently. As I said before on this thread, my wife thinks that there should be school vouchers. She believes the compensation in the public schools in Michigan is very fair. She believes the union has too much power.
But then again... she did not choose education as a career for a big salary. She knew what her entire salary would be for her entire career. I do not know any other field where that is possible. So if you know for a fact that when you graduate college and get a teaching job your going to make $34,000 a year to start, and when you have 30 or more years in at the end of your career that your going to make $70,000 (adjusted for inflation of course), what gives you the right to complain about your salary.
Teaching is not a field you go into because you want to be a millionaire. You go into it because you love educating children and want to be a difference in their life.
I actually agree with some of the things said in the "union" article. I think there should be at least some degree of merit-based pay as opposed to just a straight salary schedule. I don't agree with everything the unions do and know that in MN (strong union state, much like MI, I would imagine) some teachers resent that they pretty much HAVE to join the union or be seen as social outcasts. (Even if you don't join, you still have to pay like 75% of the union dues anyway...which are not cheap, by the way.)
In response to the Stossel video, I will re-post what someone else wrote on the "comments" section of that webpage:
As a teacher of 34 years, most of that in the public school system, I have the following comments to make:
1.Teachers are not entertainers. It is the responsibility of the students and the parents/guardians of students to establish the serious nature of education. Learning is not always fun. Ask any athlete.
2.European students may laugh at the achievement of American students - but I would ask whether or not there are LD, ED and ESOL students, as well as criminals, in their classes. American teachers are required by law "include" all students in lessons, often depriving the brighter students access to upper level instruction.
3.American classrooms are often used as "daycare" on every level of school. Ask any student who is on probation; or any student who will obey a parent (for fear of being smacked around) but will not cooperate with the teacher; ask any student who comes to school to see only friends; ask any parent who believes education is a right that precludes any home responsibility.
4.American students, as a whole, probably demonstrate less achievement because, although they have been promoted throughout the grades, their academic achievement is not up to speed. Why? It is politically incorrect for a teacher to fail a student. Today's culture points the ugly finger of failure at the teacher and not at the student and his home environment.
5.Finally, Mr. Stossel, I recall your saying that teacher salaries are not too low. As a matter of fact, the salaries are just fine because teachers are still taking jobs. In response to that I say that Mr. Stossel has not done all his homework! Today, most teachers are in the bottom 25% of the graduating class; that does not even address the quality of the college. You can bet that if teaching salaries were professionally competitive, better students would become teachers.
6.Suggestion: hold students and parents legally responsible for school achievement. Teaching will become an attractive field again.
__________________________
My own comments:
I worked at a charter school in CO for 3 years (I was a mere teaching assistant for 2 of those years when I was going to grad school...much like someone earlier in this thread mentioned, I pretty much did everything the teachers did but made a whopping $8/hr.) and I can tell you that charter schools are not necessarily this educational utopia people would like you to believe. They did SOME things right (i.e., they did have merit-based pay for teachers), but being a FOR PROFIT entity it was, essentially, a business model and you could see where they cut corners to save money (i.e., they had ONE teacher copier for an entire middle school, so when it broke down you were S.O.L.) Prior to becoming a charter school, this was a low-performing public school. Now it's a low performing charter school with the same low test scores and high teacher turnover it had before.
Now, I am all about free market principles for MOST things, but there are certain things that just can't be done effectively under a business model (look at our healthcare system, for instance.) Does the public school system need improvement? Absolutely! But we need to look at the WHOLE picture. Schools are just ONE part of the interdependent American social system that has declined over the past few decades.
Great post!
One aspect that makes teaching difficult is the culture. The culture has changed where parents do not put as much time into their kids anymore. (I am not speaking of every parent). But when you have some kids that lack, they do deprive the kids who are not lacking, from the teachers attention. Because culturally we are so politically correct, we cannot separate the kids who are not on the same level as the kids who are brighter, and have parent involvement. The only way to effectively do that is through private education which is not affordable for most parents.
I disagree with you on our health care system. The free market is working in health care. We have the best health care system in the world. If you do not think so, then why would there be thousands coming to American each year for treatments they cannot get in their own country. There are very, very few cases of any American going to another country for treatment, and in every case the reason is because no American doctor will agree with the treatment that patient will get in India or whatever country they go to. The insurance companies are what is squandering our health care system... but that is another discussion which would require its own thread.
I believe if the public schools could get the unions to have less power, (not totally remove), but do things like make it easier to fire bad teachers, not tell the school systems they need X amount of reading specialists, and other things they have no idea about because they do not work with kids. I believe the public school systems could get much better. But as long as the union has the power they have the schools primary objective will be to find a way around the union's policy's. It is a cat and mouse game, and we simply cannot be playing those games with our children and their education... doing it with the IRS is one thing, but the future minds of our country is another.
If the free market does not work, then please tell me why private schools across the board are turning out better educated children on every level. And they do it with less resources, and less money.
I get to do service work for computer networks in many different business' in my area. I get to do work in both private and public schools as well. When I am servicing a computer in a teacher's classroom, I can honestly say, that in the private schools, I see better behaved children, better performing teachers, and more advanced lessons than you will see in the public schools. If I could afford to send my kids to the private school, I would. But I am still blessed to be in an area where our public schools are adequate enough, and I am educated enough, where as long as my wife and I are very involved and help our kids with their homework, we should be able to educate our kids thoroughly.
Okay, yes, it's common knowledge that teaching and being a doctor are difficult in their own ways.
HOWEVER,
Let's not beat around the bush with doctors (and everyone involved with healthcare industry)....you all know you're overpaid and you're only overpaid because the insurance companies you make deals with and sleep with have a monopoly on people's health in this country.
If healthcare was more regulated by the government doctors wages would go down if drug $$$ went down and health insurance costs for consumers lowered as well.
Being a doctor is not that difficult and I'm sure if everyone in this country knew they'd have the opportunity to PAY for 7+ years of college with the potential to earn NO LESS than $100-150k annually, doctors would be commonplace and supply would far outweigh demand.
Dh made 140K last year, all without the 7yrs of college and the costs involved.
And I beg to differ....being a doctor is difficult. If it was that easy, you'd be one.
My dd is the health field and she is anything but over paid. Trust me. The only ones that are overpaid are the CEOs of the drug companies. Not the doctors, not the nurses, not the techs, not the CNAs...it's the ones sitting at the top of the pole that are getting all the mo ney.
I am not everyone... my wife is a public school teacher currently. As I said before on this thread, my wife thinks that there should be school vouchers. She believes the compensation in the public schools in Michigan is very fair. She believes the union has too much power.
But then again... she did not choose education as a career for a big salary. She knew what her entire salary would be for her entire career. I do not know any other field where that is possible. So if you know for a fact that when you graduate college and get a teaching job your going to make $34,000 a year to start, and when you have 30 or more years in at the end of your career that your going to make $70,000 (adjusted for inflation of course), what gives you the right to complain about your salary.
Teaching is not a field you go into because you want to be a millionaire. You go into it because you love educating children and want to be a difference in their life.
Just a note: if you saw the part of one of my posts that talked about salaries, that wasn't me, I was quoting someone who posted to another site someone here wanted me to look at.
Personally, I don't complain about my salary. I make OK money relative to the cost of living here (of course in some parts of the country, some teachers are NOT in that position...but I'm talking about my personal situation.) Would I like more? Sure. Who wouldn't? But yes, I knew going into this field that I was never going to get rich. Do I enjoy my time off? You bet! My husband is a teacher (I'm actually a school counselor...same salary schedule as the teachers) and our time off together to spend with family, visiting friends who live far away, etc. is worth MUCH more than money, IMO. I have a great professional/personal balance and I have a job in which I can actually HELP people. I wouldn't trade that for some 6-figure corporate gig.
What I would like to see more than anything is more parental support. Don't get me wrong, some parents are GREAT, but all too often we encounter students whose parents either can't or won't get involved in their childrens' education. THAT'S what makes teaching so hard and gets people complaining about their salaries, etc. Yes, we all had a good idea of what we were going to make when we were in college, but the reality of standing in front of your own classroom with 30+ kids of wildly varying abilities, varying attitudes toward learning, varying ENGLISH skills, etc. makes people think...they're only paying me $30K/year (or whatever) to do THIS? This is impossible! Why didn't I listen to my parents and go into engineering?
I think another thing people fail to understand is that private/charter schools do NOT have a magic formula that the public schools are choosing to ignore. The key there is having parents who CARE about their childrens' education. They don't see school as a dumping ground or a babysitter. I think if you gave the private schools the same kids/parents some of the public schools are dealing with, you'd see the same problems. My husband worked for a year at a Catholic school. The salaries were pathetic (like low 20's!) but he said it WAS a joy to work there because the kids were well behaved, the parents were involved, etc. Unfortunately he just couldn't financailly afford to keep working there.
Last edited by MidniteBreeze; 10-19-2007 at 10:34 AM..
Yes, I do agree with you regarding the insurance system being the big monkey wrench in health care. We DO have some of the best health care, drugs, etc. in the world...the problem is so many people can't AFFORD it. (I do think the drug companies profit WAY too much off sick people, but that's another topic.)
I agree with you 100% about our PC culture getting in the way of education. The U.S. is the only country in the world that requires all this "mainstreaming" for kids with such varying academic, intellectual and even English-language abilities. It's funny how they expect teachers to ensure that every kid (regardless of ability) learns the exact same thing but we don't expect that out of coaches? Shouldn't EVERYONE be able to hit a home run? And people wonder why schools have been "dumbed down" to the extent that they are.
As far as private schools, please see my post above. I don't argue that more learning is going on there, but I would argue that it's due much more to the quality of the "clientele" rather than the quality of the teaching instruction, curriculim, facilities, etc. If you shut down the public schools tomorrow and sent everyone to private schools, I predict you'd have the exact same problems. Those "better performing" teachers would start to burn out just like the rest of them.
Lastly, I do agree with you about teachers unions. I think they serve a purpose, but I agree that they stand in the way of change and progress at times. I agree 100% that it should be easier to fire bad teachers and I think principals and other administrators should have the discression to reward good teachers.
P.S. I'm sure your kids' teachers are very thankful for your involvement in your kids' education. THANK YOU for being a good parent and supporting what we do!!!
Last edited by MidniteBreeze; 10-19-2007 at 10:37 AM..
Just like a few days ago when you were posting at 10:30 in the morning???
Great catch joe! Try 8:50am, 9:50am, and 1:13pm as well. Must be snack breaks too...
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Snicker...
