Moving/Immigrating to Montana (Missoula: how much, to buy, camp)

[Clark Fork Fantast]

Originally Posted by Reziac

[snip]
Probably the most similar in the U.S. to Finland's treed areas would be northern Minnesota, tho MN increasingly suffers from liberal politics so may not be to your taste.

Parts of North Dakota are forested but also tillable -- my Norwegian ancestors farmed in the Turtle Mountains (better described as bumps, they aren't even hills by Montana standards) which have pretty good tree cover, with more hardwoods than in MT.

Yep, there's a reason why so many Scandinavian pioneers settled in Minnesota!

[NiinaP]

Originally Posted by historyfan

Hello Niina,
I have an old friend in Finland. She was an exchange student to high school in southwestern Montana. She was most impressed with sunshine in Winter and the vast open spaces.
The locations of the current towns in Montana reflect their origins. Most of the Western ones were settled due to mining or timber industry which was in mountaineous areas where most of the coniferous forests are. They are located along rivers and railroad lines.
However, the town of highest population is in Billings in South central Montana. It is located along a river & railroads and has grown due to agriculture, oil, refining and coal refining.
If farming is in your plans, what crops do you have experience with and wish to produce? Farming varies dramatically from one region to another in Montana. With that information I could offer better suggestions.

At the moment we have started to grow organic oat and hay, before that barley in the normal way. Most likely we would farm grains and hay for our own animals, which will include at least 1 Finnhorse. In my personal dreams we would have couple of cows for milk and meat, chickens for eggs and pigs for meat. Maybe even couple sheep for wool. So we could be as self-sufficient as possible. And organic of course. In here it's nearly impossible to make that dream come true, since all the regulations concerning keeping animals and so on, are so strict nowdays.

[Reziac]

What part of Finland do you live in? How do all these regulations affect the reindeer people?

[NiinaP]

I live in the Northern Ostrobothnia, in a city called Raahe. Last year we were still independent municipality called Vihanti.

The regulations don't affect the reindeer herders, they have their own laws and regulations, since reindeer is only semi domesticated, unlike other livestock. The one of latest regulation changes was about stables and horses box sizes. Many ridingschools and other how have their livelihood bound on the horses had to quit, since the stalls weren't no longer adequate and they didn't have enough money to make the changes on their own stables.

[Reziac]

Yeah, same sort of nonsense (sponsored by the 'animal rights' nuts) is going in parts of America. So far Montana hasn't succumbed to it, but the day is coming.

[Vegabern]

Originally Posted by Reziac

Yeah, same sort of nonsense (sponsored by the 'animal rights' nuts) is going in parts of America. So far Montana hasn't succumbed to it, but the day is coming.

Buffalo Field Campaign and whoever it is that's trying to put the wolves back on the endangered species list would beg to differ.

[NiinaP]

Oh, the wolf issue We have some wolves too, but unfortunately not enough to them to thrive... Without illeagal hunting we would have about 700 at this point, but the max was in 2007 when there were approx. 300 individuals... now the count has dropped to 120-135 last spring. Not enough to even to remove problem animals easily, lots of paper war and so on... :/ Im technically pro-wolf, but I understand those who suffer livestock losses due wolves and understand their anger. Same goes for lost hunting dogs. We have a lots of hunting dogs, varying from hare hounds, to bear and moose dogs and spitzes who bark grouse on trees as well retrievers. Some wolves/packs seem to be very aggressive towards dogs, not standing a single dog on their territory, so if dog is on hunt or on a leash in backyard and the wolves hear it bark, they will come and kill it. Then there are packs who only kill dogs who come too close to their rendezvous areas/denning sites... And then there are packs that don't really care about dogs at all.
Another reason why I want to move in States, is that there I have bigger chance to get in university and start studying biology and wolves. I'm most interested on behavior and want to explore how humans can affect wolves behavior so, that minimum amount of conflicts would occur. For example, is fear avoidance to humans purely genetic, purely learned or is it inherited epigenetically. If we know, we can start considering options how to reduce human/wolf and wolf/livestock conflicts.

[Vegabern]

Missoula it is. The University of Montana churns out Wildlife Biology students like they're running a printing press.

The main complaints about wolves around here aren't human encounters but livestock losses and also wildlife losses. It's getting harder and harder to hunt not only because people are closing off access to land but because wolves are killing all the deer, elk and moose.

[Reziac]

Originally Posted by Vegabern

Buffalo Field Campaign and whoever it is that's trying to put the wolves back on the endangered species list would beg to differ.

Yeah, there is that. But they haven't managed to attack domestic animal producers too much yet. In some states, thanks to the ARs, pig production and dog breeding are no more. (A void being filled largely by imported 'rescue' dogs, and pork imported from gods know where.)

Originally Posted by NiinaP

For example, is fear avoidance to humans purely genetic, purely learned or is it inherited epigenetically. If we know, we can start considering options how to reduce human/wolf and wolf/livestock conflicts.

I am a professional dog breeder/trainer with over 40 years experience. In my observation, behavior (including attitude and ability to learn) is almost entirely inherited; you only have about 5% of the animal to work with. It's likely to be even more so in wild animals, which haven't been selected for the flexibility required of domestic stock. -- On reading about 'problem wolves' of the past, and the Juneau wolf, I've been struck by how they seem to be seeking contact with man, as if they have "domestication genes" (a "desire" to become domesticated, that is, to follow the most successful species; which has been theorized as an origin for domestic animals in general). Coyotes certainly have a lot of pseudo-domestic behavior, and are believed to have actually followed man across America (they are not native to anywhere but the Southwest).

[NiinaP]

Problem with the hereditary behavior is, whether its actual genetic inheritance or is it epigenetic inheritance. You can most likely affect the epigenetically inherited traits, with out lethal intervention, where as compleltely genetic inheritance requires removal of certain genre bearers to be removed so the gene does not pass on.

In russia, the hunting of wolves has been on an off for centuries and when ever the hunting pressure stopped, it took few wolf generations before wolves came bold again and when hunting was more active they adjusted to it rather quickly coming more shy and avoiding people and towns, until the pressure stopped again... If we can make conclusions from that, the fear avoidance towards humans is epigenetic, so the mechanism that is behind the fear avoidance can be either on or off. When hunted the mechanism in turned on and it can be inherited. When the hunting stops, the mechanism stays on for few generations, but since it's unnecessary, it will go off after time.

But now I have to go to sleep, since it's 10 pasta midnaight in here and I must wake up 6 am. so I can drive to work some 50 miles away from home