Would demystifying sex lead to less men developing an incel-like mentality? (misogynistic, girlfriend)

[K12144]

Originally Posted by zentropa

The person who coined the term "incel" is a lesbian, but it was hijacked by the kinds of guys you see posting their misogyny here and elsewhere. But your question is definitely intriguing and worthy of its own thread.

Yeah, and it was actually Sonic pointing that out that made me think of it (again-- I've wondered it before in the past). I'd have to look it up-- was her lack of sex because no one was interested, or because of circumstances? Is it interesting that in this case, the people who don't provide the desired sexual interaction are still women? Does it say anything that a term coined by a woman has been co-opted by men (not like that's ever happened before...)?

[North Beach Person]

There have always been social misfits. The internet/social media has just magnified their voices and allowed them to connect with other social misfits.

[mordant]

Originally Posted by K12144

In this context-- these men don't understand that women may not think the way that they do, and it's like they're actually incapable of considering or grasping that someone else may have different preferences. "They must want what I want and think like I think, but just choose to act differently." Like I said above, I don't know if it's a lack of empathy or imagination, or just a certain self-centeredness that they are the norm and everyone else must/needs to be like them (or some deep fear that they're not normal so they need to believe they are so hard that they'll vilify anyone who deviates from what they are?).

More generally, it's a common error to assume most people are approximately just like you. I did not understand this at all as an adolescent; as a young adult, it took me by surprise. It was amplified in my case because of my sheltered religious upbringing, which had exposed me only to a homogenous group with the same beliefs and ideas. But I have heard from many young people over the years that this is often surprising to them.

It helps to be curious: if you can simply note difference and learn about it, that's a better response than fighting it, insisting everyone SHOULD be "just like you".

Originally Posted by K12144

I'm curious about why one never hears of women describing themselves as "incels." I'm sure they must be out there, but I've yet to hear of one. Certainly women are rejected as often as men are, though, and I would argue in some cases more often, if they're not "attractive" enough.

Could it be that they feel less entitled? Are more accustomed to deferring, accommodating, nurturing, placating? Have more emotional intelligence? In other words, are just not such asshats?

[Arya Stark]

I think the real problem is that until about 1950 the way people got married was much different.

For thousands of years women could not work so they needed to be cared for by men. So women, or their families, arranged a marriage and paid a man - dowry -- to care for the woman, for life. The man got the dowry and someone to have his kids and a forever sex partner (and if you were a King you may secure an alliance) and the woman got taken care of for life, because you couldn't divorce and it was legally required. The man could even fool around on the side. But he had to support his wife.

So, in essence, most men -- good looking or not, would get a wife... most women, good looking or not, would get a husband. There were limited exceptions and there were bad things about this system but..

Since about the early 1900s and mid 1900s (in the case of divorces) women got the freedom to work on their own -- thus destroying their need to marry and marriage is not a forever thing and so a woman can be divorced.

The incentive to marry or have sex (being a step to marriage) for a women comes down to two things, a man who looks good and has money (or one of the two). For most men, there just isn't that much to recommend them and for the most part, refuse to do anything to increase their chances... essentially wondering why, for thousands of years most any man was married and seeming to believe women should love them for their obese video game basement ways.

I think we have to address the problem even if we admit that arranged marriages might be a good thing or admit that we have to put more effort as a society into making sure most people have a solid relationship life and it isn't just going to appear out of thin air.

[westminster88]

Sex (access to it) is the symptom, not the problem.

The deeply disenfranchised (and IMO, mentally ill) can act out in many ways, they can be obsessed with economic disparities, or in the case of incels, their perceptions about sex.

Access to $$ wouldn't cure the first example, freer access to sex wouldn't sure the second example.

[Mathguy]

*Please read this through there is no malice in my post just some perspective of an older male*

Women in their 20's especially and even into their thirties have this sort of warped view because they've been chased for a long time. Fast forward into 40's and 50's and....the better catch guys their age are hip deep (literally) into women 10+ years younger. (results may vary, please this is only general commentary I really don't want to hear an anecdotal rebuttal about some exception)

So, if you're going to mock the incels it turns into a rather ugly hypocritical situation where 20-30 years later....well a lot of gals become the "incels" or rather bitter about how men want young women etc. etc. etc. story as old as time.

I am acutely aware of this as went through highschool with plenty of gf choices, probably an 8/10 or so....then went bald early...found myself in my early 20's as a 3/10 (didn't date much) then got in great shape in my late 30s and became a 9/10 where a ripped shaved headed guy was attractive to that age group but not younger.

In short, if you're going to casually insult folks with the term "incel" then embrace the phrase "old hag" as equally "kind" and politically correct. Maybe a little kindness and compassion is in order?

[fleetiebelle]

Originally Posted by Mathguy

In short, if you're going to casually insult folks with the term "incel" then embrace the phrase "old hag" as equally "kind" and politically correct. Maybe a little kindness and compassion is in order?

Incels call themselves incels, though? It's not a casual insult.

[antifahaha]

Originally Posted by hannahfeehan

I've been familiar with incels since I was a teenager. I remember the news when Elliot Rodger went on his rampage. I have a socially maladjusted cousin who had similar disturbing thoughts and eventually embraced the ideology in his 20s.

From what I gather, incels aren't obsessed with sex per say but the lack of any form of intimacy with the opposite sex.

Honestly Americans are super weird about sex so you attribute everything to it. This comment is ENTIRELY wrong. This incel phenomena has NOTHING to do with "sex", ie getting sex. It's all about being SERVED. These guys are delusional, raised/not raised by horrendous people with horrendous values and taught that your value is entirely based on your status ie, what school you went to, how much $ you have, car you drive, how many women you "have". Their anger is ENTIRELY about being GIVEN WOMEN BY SOCIETY which is of course a delusion, not the lack of HAVING a woman.

It's not about GETTING WOMEN. It's about their not understanding how life works and thinking that they "failed" or are failing because they were not REWARDED magically by being served up a great woman on a platter.

They're angry they have to work for anything because they don't realize that everyone else (yes even "Chads") have to work for everything too.

Wish more people understood this. Most women pick up on this myth/delusion around and abut early on.

[antifahaha]

Originally Posted by Mathguy

became a 9/10 where a ripped shaved headed guy was attractive to that age group but not younger.

In short, if you're going to casually insult folks with the term "incel" then embrace the phrase "old hag" as equally "kind" and politically correct. Maybe a little kindness and compassion is in order?

1. The only shaved headed guy whos a 9/10 in existence is The Rock.

And dont say Vin Diesel, he's gross (went to college with him too in the 90s).

2. "old hag" has nothing to do with BEHAVIOR. "Incel" is Entirely to do with behavior.

[bobspez]

You can't fix everyone. Why would you even try? Anyway, talk wouldn't do it. Even if incels had a sexual relationship, when it broke up they would revert to form, or become stalkers or something else. Relationships take lots of compromise, acceptance and work, so even if they had a relationship, incels personality and beliefs would probably sabotage it.