Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I've been familiar with incels since I was a teenager. I remember the news when Elliot Rodger went on his rampage. I have a socially maladjusted cousin who had similar disturbing thoughts and eventually embraced the ideology in his 20s.
From what I gather, incels aren't obsessed with sex per say but the lack of any form of intimacy with the opposite sex. My cousin growing up, never had any female friends, and never got any discussions on sex. When he brought it up with parents, they would shut down the topic. They also didn't approve of him doing feminine things.
It seems to me that sex is like drug prohibition for incels. By making it taboo to have an honest discussion about it, many hype it up and develop totally distorted views. Perhaps by having comprehensive sex ed and breaking down gender norms, they'd be less likely to fall down the rabbit hole.
I actually think that this is connected to a bunch of other things. It's easy to pin it to the subject of sex since it seems like that's "the problem." But I believe that there is more going on in a much bigger sense, that is leading to this stuff.
Because the worst bad actors of the incel movement are not simply guys who can't get laid. If anything that is more a symptom than the disease, and just gives them one complaint to focus their anger and grievance.
It is the sense of frustrated entitlement, hopelessness and despair and ensuing rage about it...that is the real issue. What feeds that?
1. The sheer extent of wealth inequality in many nations is a contributor. When conditions are like this, everyone (including, actually, the wealthy) gets less happy and more prone to focus on perceived wrongs. People in general get more hung up on whether or not the are getting what they feel they deserve, or whether they feel they deserve what they have. And those who don't start out with any really great advantages or opportunities might wonder if they will ever even be able to afford what used to be middle class milestones, like owning a home or having children without constantly fearing for if they can reliably provide for them. It's not just people's net worth on the ropes in an economy like America's is now...it's their dignity.
2. The internet. The sheer flooding of porn and the ability for people to spiral into increasing isolation and troll/bully mindsets and to see their nasty attitudes validated and mirrored if they find other incels in groups or forums.
3. A highly divisive social atmosphere driven by international political actors. It has been a very deliberate tactic to feed the mentality into people, "You're not getting the life you deserve, want, and should have, and it is THOSE other people's fault! You should hate them. You might even consider making war against them, for surely they are the enemy of your happiness!" This particular instance simply happens to be men getting that way about women and successful men. But their perception of reality is distorted, and it is done ON PURPOSE.
4. And all of this is happening against a backdrop of female empowerment. Women can control our reproduction, we can vote, we can become successful in college and the workplace. We can lead nations and companies. We can conduct all of the financial and property transactions that men can. This has been the case for less than one full lifetime in America. We are no longer helpless to live a full life without a man (or a charitable family) to help with our basic support. We can go just as far as any man and some of us can go much further than most. And no fault divorce is now the law of the land. Which means that in order for a man to find, catch, and keep, a loving relationship with a woman, and one that isn't fraught with problems, he must step up and get said woman to LIKE HIM. He's got to be a more appealing option, than a woman's own company alone is to her. Neither of my Grandmothers liked my Grandfathers. They both made it until death did them part, and by the time it happened those couples were more hate than love, but if they'd been young people today they would have split up long sooner. No woman will tolerate what either of my Grandmothers did, or their mothers or their mothers' mothers. Men however, have been slow to catch up and stubborn about changing their behavior, and it's been very unclear about what aspects they even SHOULD consider changing or not. I do not blame men for feeling confused and uncertain sometimes. And how are they supposed to adapt, anyways, if we've all been driven to hide in our homes staring at screens rather than interacting with other PEOPLE?? (Pandemic lockdowns, while perhaps necessary, I suspect have set a lot of people back in this regard.)
It won’t fix the root problem, which in my opinion is some people are just evil by nature (and circumstance) regardless of their sex life. I think incels, who are violent, have the same problem as other men who have regular sex yet are violent.
As a guy I hate to be prejudiced against other guys, but the facts suggests they have a more biologically driven violent nature and it manifests itself across ethnicity, race and culture. And, it is independent of their sexual history as far as being able to have consensual sex.
If their sexual history includes being abused as children themselves… *THIS* might get to the root of the problem more so than “sex ed for incels”.
Incels aren't necessarily violent, though, some do act out in frustration. But, as Sonic alluded to, merely having sex wouldn't make these guys into boyfriend material. They're not happy, and they're often soaking in a toxic online culture. Many would sympathize with someone who wants to make a connection and can't; very few would understand forcing that connection on someone as punishment for not choosing someone who doesn't appeal.
Let's ask our resident incels. CD is loaded with them. Anyone want to weigh in?
I'd call myself an incel until about age 17, I remember the mentality. I mistakenly thought women processed emotionally like men but willfully chose not too. Simply to be difficult. My parent's unstable marriage supported this...hypothesis? Surprise surprise: not true on all counts. It took going away to college to iron that out, but didn't take long. Modest sexuality and normal interaction with women followed. I had some dear GFs o'er the 4 1/2 years at Big State U and all was well.
Some of those dumb beliefs persisted into my mid-20s. After being friend zoned and damn foolishly believing so-called "covert contracts" and etc. would lead to genuine burning desire in a woman, I took another leap forward emotionally after being cast into the abyss one final time at 26 at so. Trauma is the way most guys wise up. Some don't unf. Which is a shame...There are resources these days that didn't exist in the '90s and early 2000s. They sure do now thank God. Social media dating upended the paradigm yet agina past c. 5 years. Another story entirely yet related for many young men persistently struggling.
I mean, hell, we've had men show up over the years in Relationships who will even admit that they have not been shut out of the ability to have sex or to date, they've been with women...yet they spout all the same language and ideas and bitterness and anger. Even simply not having found what they believe is their specific goal and their own notion of a Happily Ever After is enough to tip them into the mindset and send them seeking other men to commiserate with online. And groups of guys who are mad about the terms of divorces can sometimes fit the same vibe as well. Some of them have actually been through traumatizing divorces, some are just using their imagination and things they've heard to paint women as generally evil villains.
I put all of them into a big camp together, really. It goes far, far beyond whether a man has had sex or not. I mean...I've known in person a few guys who were inexperienced sexually well into advanced adulthood and yet who did not have the mindset that one associates with "incel."
Yet my own ex, at times, as he's waded through some of the worst emotional states of the last chunk of years since we split, has despite having had 3 wives and many other sex partners in his lifetime...has sometimes dug into this mentality. Affiliated with these and other toxic groups of angry men online. Has said really disgusting and awful things about women in general.
So I really think it's very important, even though the word was invented (by a woman, incidentally, who had no sexual history) to mean simply someone who wants to be having sex but is not... There is truly so much more to the reality of people who rally around it now.
I mean, hell, we've had men show up over the years in Relationships who will even admit that they have not been shut out of the ability to have sex or to date, they've been with women...yet they spout all the same language and ideas and bitterness and anger. Even simply not having found what they believe is their specific goal and their own notion of a Happily Ever After is enough to tip them into the mindset and send them seeking other men to commiserate with online.
This really strikes me as social media amplifying a much older tendency for men to assume that women are simply incomprehensibly obtuse or weird or "overly emotional" or whatever. They expect women to think, feel, and act like they do, and they expect this without irony.
In truth, men are just as irrational as women, just in their own particular ways. HUMANS are irrational, inconsistent, and often feckless. Mature people learn to stop choking the handiest throat (the other gender, their spouse, their parents, whatever) and work on themselves instead. [shrug]
I've been familiar with incels since I was a teenager. I remember the news when Elliot Rodger went on his rampage. I have a socially maladjusted cousin who had similar disturbing thoughts and eventually embraced the ideology in his 20s.
From what I gather, incels aren't obsessed with sex per say but the lack of any form of intimacy with the opposite sex. My cousin growing up, never had any female friends, and never got any discussions on sex. When he brought it up with parents, they would shut down the topic. They also didn't approve of him doing feminine things.
It seems to me that sex is like drug prohibition for incels. By making it taboo to have an honest discussion about it, many hype it up and develop totally distorted views. Perhaps by having comprehensive sex ed and breaking down gender norms, they'd be less likely to fall down the rabbit hole.
But the problem seems to be that they don't want to *talk* about it. They want to *have* it. Without addressing the things that may be the reason they're not getting it. This type tends to become bitter that women don't just fall into bed with them with no effort on their part. I get it-- it's rough if you think you're a nice person, etc., and the opposite sex still isn't into you. But for these types, instead of saying "well, that sucks, but sometimes it happens," they start to get angry and bitter and start blaming others. I mean, when stuff happens to you, you have pretty much three choices: 1. do something to change it, 2. accept it and move on without letting it faze you, or 3. become angry and bitter about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
4. And all of this is happening against a backdrop of female empowerment. Women can control our reproduction, we can vote, we can become successful in college and the workplace. We can lead nations and companies. We can conduct all of the financial and property transactions that men can. This has been the case for less than one full lifetime in America. We are no longer helpless to live a full life without a man (or a charitable family) to help with our basic support. We can go just as far as any man and some of us can go much further than most. And no fault divorce is now the law of the land. Which means that in order for a man to find, catch, and keep, a loving relationship with a woman, and one that isn't fraught with problems, he must step up and get said woman to LIKE HIM. He's got to be a more appealing option, than a woman's own company alone is to her. Neither of my Grandmothers liked my Grandfathers. They both made it until death did them part, and by the time it happened those couples were more hate than love, but if they'd been young people today they would have split up long sooner. No woman will tolerate what either of my Grandmothers did, or their mothers or their mothers' mothers. Men however, have been slow to catch up and stubborn about changing their behavior, and it's been very unclear about what aspects they even SHOULD consider changing or not. I do not blame men for feeling confused and uncertain sometimes. And how are they supposed to adapt, anyways, if we've all been driven to hide in our homes staring at screens rather than interacting with other PEOPLE?? (Pandemic lockdowns, while perhaps necessary, I suspect have set a lot of people back in this regard.)
Yes, this is true. I get it... certain things have been "the status quo" for a long time, and now there are people getting confused by why it's changing, and thus angry. The problem is that the angry ones don't understand that "the status quo" wasn't good for certain people (whether related to sex/gender, race, religion, disability, etc.). They probably didn't "see" the negatives for other people, so because it was good for them, they assume it was good for everyone, and now they're mad at someone rocking the boat when they (erroneously) didn't think there was a problem to begin with.
I mean, there are people who think it's actually a bad thing that other people are now enjoying-- or trying to enjoy-- the same freedoms, privileges, respect, etc. that they themselves have always enjoyed, and they're mad that they might have to inconvenience themselves slightly to make room at the table they've always been lucky enough to have a space at.
(I'm not sure if this involves a lack of empathy, a lack of imagination, or a certain selfishness.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetiebelle
Incels aren't necessarily violent, though, some do act out in frustration. But, as Sonic alluded to, merely having sex wouldn't make these guys into boyfriend material. They're not happy, and they're often soaking in a toxic online culture. Many would sympathize with someone who wants to make a connection and can't; very few would understand forcing that connection on someone as punishment for not choosing someone who doesn't appeal.
For some of them... I'm not sure they want to be "boyfriend material." I've no doubt some would like to be "a good significant other" and just feel frustrated that, for whatever reason (their fault or not), it's not working out for them and they're just reacting to it in the incorrect way (I think maybe due to immaturity and not knowing how a healthy person's psyche is supposed to function?)... but I think some just want to "get some" and really don't care if they're deserving of a woman's attention or not as long as they get it, don't care if she gets anything out of the deal/is treated well as long as they get theirs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
Some of them have actually been through traumatizing divorces, some are just using their imagination and things they've heard to paint women as generally evil villains.
And some are immature enough that they can't stand to see their own hand in the end of a relationship, so it's easier to blame the other person (this can, of course, happen to both sexes, but we're speaking specifically here). BT&DT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
This really strikes me as social media amplifying a much older tendency for men to assume that women are simply incomprehensibly obtuse or weird or "overly emotional" or whatever. They expect women to think, feel, and act like they do, and they expect this without irony.
In truth, men are just as irrational as women, just in their own particular ways. HUMANS are irrational, inconsistent, and often feckless. Mature people learn to stop choking the handiest throat (the other gender, their spouse, their parents, whatever) and work on themselves instead. [shrug]
At the very least, I think one has to be able to understand that not everyone in the world has the same experiences, tendencies, preferences, mindset, etc. as they do. That seems to be a difficult thing for a lot of people. "I don't understand how someone else can like to wear X, eat Y, do Z, be like A, go to B, date C, etc. because I myself don't like those things." We see it here sometimes, even. Mind you, I'm not talking about things that are unacceptable, like eating one's toenails or wearing a Speedo to a funeral or being a pedophile or something-- I mean everyday things that are perfectly fine, just not the preference of the person who's flabbergasted that someone else may prefer those things.
I mean, sure-- there are a lot of things out there that other people like or want that are so far removed from what I like or want that I don't understand why they like or want those things... but I understand and accept that they do, even if I don't agree with them, and I'm not going to criticize them or say something must be wrong with them unless the things are in some way inappropriate or harmful to others.
In this context-- these men don't understand that women may not think the way that they do, and it's like they're actually incapable of considering or grasping that someone else may have different preferences. "They must want what I want and think like I think, but just choose to act differently." Like I said above, I don't know if it's a lack of empathy or imagination, or just a certain self-centeredness that they are the norm and everyone else must/needs to be like them (or some deep fear that they're not normal so they need to believe they are so hard that they'll vilify anyone who deviates from what they are?).
Really, this thread is the same topic we've seen before re: incels: how can we make life easier for them without requiring them to take a long, hard look at themselves and their behavior/attitudes?
I'm curious about why one never hears of women describing themselves as "incels." I'm sure they must be out there, but I've yet to hear of one. Certainly women are rejected as often as men are, though, and I would argue in some cases more often, if they're not "attractive" enough.
I'm curious about why one never hears of women describing themselves as "incels." I'm sure they must be out there, but I've yet to hear of one. Certainly women are rejected as often as men are, though, and I would argue in some cases more often, if they're not "attractive" enough.
The person who coined the term "incel" is a lesbian, but it was hijacked by the kinds of guys you see posting their misogyny here and elsewhere. But your question is definitely intriguing and worthy of its own thread.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
