Stolen cement gargoyle (Phoenix, Tucson, Pima: lawyer, houses, law school)

[kdog]

Originally Posted by Metlakatla

Actually, it isn't more than enough...it isn't even close to enough. A legal term called "reasonable doubt" comes into play here. Could be several black SUVs in a city the size of Phoenix with similar license plate numbers. To make a positive ID they need the exact make and model as well as the entire license plate number.

Not even close enough for what? Further investigation? Six out of seven digits gets you to within 30 vehicles or so. How many black full-size SUVs do you think you're going to find in 30 vehicles? Maybe two, tops. How hard is it to drive by the house and see if a cement gargoyle is out front, or simply talk to the owner? You don't need burden of proof to talk to someone.

[Bummer]

Originally Posted by Metlakatla

Actually, it isn't more than enough...it isn't even close to enough. A legal term called "reasonable doubt" comes into play here. Could be several black SUVs in a city the size of Phoenix with similar license plate numbers. To make a positive ID they need the exact make and model as well as the entire license plate number.

Originally Posted by kdog

Not even close enough for what? Further investigation? Six out of seven digits gets you to within 30 vehicles or so. How many black full-size SUVs do you think you're going to find in 30 vehicles? Maybe two, tops. How hard is it to drive by the house and see if a cement gargoyle is out front, or simply talk to the owner? You don't need burden of proof to talk to someone.

Although a little "off topic" here . . . I agree with kdog.

Six out of seven digits with a basic description of the vehicle should be adequate, however, with our lovely economy in the toilet creating "cuts" in every public service department . . . the investigation will take more time than usual.

Keeping this fiasco active with regular calls to the Sheriff's Department plus help from the local media is very important.

Once again, Susie . . . GOOD LUCK, these arrogant thugs will pay, sooner or later.

[SusieWilson]

Marcy 1210 - KVOA was the only place I contacted that would really even listen!!! I had no idea it was on the news. I am so thankful you posted! I went to the KVOA website but didn't see anything. Thanks so much for letting me know.

FOR everyone who comment (BUT KARMA) - thank you so much. Your positiveness and wonderful comments have lifted my spirit and made me realize people DO CARE. I and my mom, thank you so much!!!

[Metlakatla]

Originally Posted by kdog

Not even close enough for what? Further investigation? Six out of seven digits gets you to within 30 vehicles or so. How many black full-size SUVs do you think you're going to find in 30 vehicles? Maybe two, tops. How hard is it to drive by the house and see if a cement gargoyle is out front, or simply talk to the owner? You don't need burden of proof to talk to someone.

I didn't say it wasn't close enough for further investigation; it is. What I was responding to was your statement that it's more than enough for a positive identification, and it isn't.

I don't get this. Having six out of 7 digits of the license plate, along with a description of the vehicle is more than enough information to make a positive ID.

Maybe I read this wrong; I took it to mean that the information enough to make a positive ID of the specific vehicle involved.

Anyway, to the OP, I hope you get it back...and even if you don't, maybe having it on the news will make the thieves think twice before they do this to anyone else.

[kdog]

Originally Posted by Metlakatla

I didn't say it wasn't close enough for further investigation; it is. What I was responding to was your statement that it's more than enough for a positive identification, and it isn't.

Maybe I read this wrong; I took it to mean that the information enough to make a positive ID of the specific vehicle involved.

Nitpick much?

IF out of the 30-something vehicles that match the 6 digits, there's only one black SUV that matches the description, you have a positive ID. IF there's more than one black SUV, AND a gargoyle is in the owners yard, you have a positive ID. IF there are multiple black SUVs and SusieWilson is able recognize one of them, you have a positive ID. If SusieWilson recognizes the owner of one of those black SUVs as being the perpetrator (since she saw him), you have a positive ID. If the police go to the door of the owner of one of those black SUVs and the owner starts sweating and confesses to the crime, you have a positive ID. If the screaming lady answers the door and starts screaming again you have a positive ID. I maintain there's a 99% chance of making a positive ID by using this information.

[Metlakatla]

What I said was that an incomplete license number and color of vehicle is not enough to make a positive ID. Yes, it's good information and when your throw gargoyes in the yard and screaming ladies answering the door into the mix, could lead to a positive ID of the thief.

Don't get so defensive; I read your post to say that a positive ID could be made with the information at hand leading to the specific vehicle in question; from a legal standpoint, it really can't. You obviously meant something different in your post, that's all.

[observer53]

It's enough get a positive ID of the vehicle involved, unless there's a huge coincidence of multiple black SUVs in the potential pool, or the plate was stolen. From there, it could be pretty easy to identify the man, or not, depending on whether the owner was the driver, and SW's ability to identify him.

"Reasonable doubt" isn't even an issue at this point. "Probable cause" to search, etc., is.

[phonelady61]

You know it never amazes me what people steal these days . To the op I hope you get it back . I just wanted to let you know someone stole my dear M.I.Ls urn to hold flowers at her grave and there was a statue there too and someone stole that too . Bad karma will follow them because they to me are grave robbers nothing short of it and people like that are scum and deserve nothing in their sorry azz lives .

[observer53]

I had some fake terra cotta pots with pretty petunias going down my driveway years ago. I came out one morning to get the paper, and they were gone. It is amazing what people will take. "Grave robbing" pretty much takes the cake.

Susie, I hope you keep us posted.

[Metlakatla]

Originally Posted by observer53

It's enough get a positive ID of the vehicle involved, unless there's a huge coincidence of multiple black SUVs in the potential pool, or the plate was stolen. From there, it could be pretty easy to identify the man, or not, depending on whether the owner was the driver, and SW's ability to identify him.

"Reasonable doubt" isn't even an issue at this point. "Probable cause" to search, etc., is.

Legally, it quite simply is not enough to positively ID the vehicle, sorry, and that's where the legal term reasonable doubt comes into play. Though it's good enough information to make a good start, by itself, it just wouldn't stand up in court--that's what I meant.