Fire for supposed "Theft", Denied Hearing 26th. (UI, employee, appeal)

[Leonalexander]

I didn't keep the texts because I didn't think they would be used against me, everything seemed fine my mistake.


But he submitted his text as evidence, showing part of my test saying "Pickle, I'm needing to get groceries so I can get through till i get paid, Anyway If I could get some small advance and I'll pay you back or you can take it out of my check.


He responded with some information about the next days work and that he would tell the guys (Co Owners)


I told him I may be alright "Thought a friend was gonna loan me money but he didn't"


but told him Thanks a ton, and that's where it cutoff, This was the 21st and I didn't spend till the 22nd.


I guess my assuming was wrong.

[janja1]

I wasn't thinking about them being used against you. I was thinking that YOU could use them as evidence. However, if you didn't save the texts, all you have to go on is what they submitted.


But he submitted his text as evidence, showing part of my test saying "Pickle, I'm needing to get groceries so I can get through till i get paid, Anyway If I could get some small advance and I'll pay you back or you can take it out of my check.

I wouldn't equate asking for a small advance with asking for permission to use the company credit card for personal expenses. I would think it would be more along the lines of going by the office and picking up an advance (if approved).

He responded with some information about the next days work and that he would tell the guys (Co Owners)

A response with some information about the next day's work and that he will tell the guys -- I think that will be hard to actually sell as "He told me it would be okay to use the credit card and that he would inform the co-owners of his decision.

I told him I may be alright "Thought a friend was gonna loan me money but he didn't"

So in the text to him you said "I may be alright"? or you said "I thought a friend was going to loan me money, but he didn't."

but told him Thanks a ton, and that's where it cutoff, This was the 21st and I didn't spend till the 22nd.

Thanks a ton doesn't necessarily translate to "Thank you for agreeing to let me use the company credit card for personal business."

I guess my assuming was wrong.

Yeah. It is not looking good, especially as they seem to be actively fighting this. Did they also submit the credit card statement?

[Leonalexander]

Yeah they listed off some charges, Some were correct but some were for legitimate gas charges and I still paid them for it because I was trying to be sincere.


They claimed I bought alcohol and medicine with the card because the gas station was named K$M Liquor and Tobacco.


They asked me "Why I did it" when they fired me, I told them "I told Cole and he said he was going to talk to you two"


And they responded "Well he's very busy and probably doesn't get around to everything he says"


The medicine and alcohol part took me back because I had mentioned to them before that I don't drink or take prescription medication but I told them one of the charges was when my brother got food poisoning (2 days before I was fired) and used it then to buy him saltines and 7 up, They claimed I bought medicine I guess they interpenetrated that differently

[janja1]

Originally Posted by Leonalexander

Yeah they listed off some charges, Some were correct but some were for legitimate gas charges and I still paid them for it because I was trying to be sincere.


They claimed I bought alcohol and medicine with the card because the gas station was named K$M Liquor and Tobacco.

Did you save your receipts? Those would show exactly what you bought. Are you saying that you paid them for some gas that was actually purchased as a company expense? It would seem like showing evidence that it was a legitimate expense would work better. Paying for it would boost the amount they said you stole from them.

Plus, if I was in a position where I had to use a company credit card to purchase saltines and 7-up, I wouldn't want to be paying for legitimate business expenses.

[Leonalexander]

I told them when they printed out the thing it totaled 84.07.


I told them I'm fairly sure two of those 22.46 and 25.76 charges were for gas all my charges were usually 6-10 dollars.


I had all my receipts in the truck they day they fired me, Had I known I was gonna get fired I would have pulled them out.


I told them I don't agree with that amount but I paid him $80 and told them I had just put 5 dollars of my own money in the work truck so I could come pay them.


Totaling $85, Of course later they claimed I only paid them $80, I mentioned the $5 gas receipt was also in the truck.

[janja1]

Originally Posted by Leonalexander

When they came to my house to collect the money (See original story) I paid them then they fired me but offered me to become a salesmen for them.


My point was it's odd to lie about "Catching me" then fire me for not being able to trust me but still keep me hired as a salesman.

I guess you only informed them verbally that you would be coming in to pay them? (i.e. you don't have evidence that you offered to pay them before you "got caught.")?

Though I get your point about why would they want you as a salesman if you can't be trusted, I don't think it helps your case. Trying to use that as "evidence" would be more like admitting that you turned down a (possible reasonable) offer of employment. Do you have any evidence they offered this?

At a hearing - It could be possible that the ALJ would at least knock it down from a gross misconduct to a misconduct (which has far fewer penalties attached). It would take convincing the ALJ that the behavior was not willful or wanton. It would help if you had some type of evidence that you actually attempted to pay them back before they came to fire you. Even a phone record that you called them before they called you that day might help (though it not really what I would consider really good evidence). But you might have enough to shift it from "We caught him stealing and fired him" to "This was a big misunderstanding and I honestly though I had permission." That doesn't mean you get a free pass -- but it could possibly lessen the penalty.

You might also luck out to where the employer doesn't show up for the hearing. But it still sounds like there is already some pretty harmful evidence in the file.

[janja1]

Originally Posted by Leonalexander

I told them when they printed out the thing it totaled 84.07.


I told them I'm fairly sure two of those 22.46 and 25.76 charges were for gas all my charges were usually 6-10 dollars.


I had all my receipts in the truck they day they fired me, Had I known I was gonna get fired I would have pulled them out.


I told them I don't agree with that amount but I paid him $80 and told them I had just put 5 dollars of my own money in the work truck so I could come pay them.


Totaling $85, Of course later they claimed I only paid them $80, I mentioned the $5 gas receipt was also in the truck.

So they had you pay for all of the charges made on your card? I am not sure if proving that half of the charges were legitimate would be helpful to you. I guess you could try to subpoena the receipts. If they say they don't have them, they should be able to get a copy from the credit card company.

Another option is you said you know the owner of the gas station fairly well -- You could ask them if they can pull up duplicate receipts for you.

It doesn't sound like you had the card long enough to actually get a mailed cc statement. It sounds like they pulled it up when you admitted you made the charges?

[Leonalexander]

They pulled up a snapshot of the charges I'm assuming using an online bank, your correct had the card for like 3 weeks or less, Originally had the actual owners Credit Card but then they got me one in my name.


Yeah I may ask the gas station owner go through line by line and see if he can pull receipts, Feel at a loss here.


I've been trying to get my personal information from these people for awhile now including my pay stubs because I think there's lost income (I know there is)


I got two paystubs but they are basic, lacking much information and they just emailed me back saying they can't seem to get my paystub information.


Future note I'll make sure to document absolutely everything I ever do at my next job.

[Leonalexander]

Originally Posted by janja1

I guess you only informed them verbally that you would be coming in to pay them? (i.e. you don't have evidence that you offered to pay them before you "got caught.")?

Though I get your point about why would they want you as a salesman if you can't be trusted, I don't think it helps your case. Trying to use that as "evidence" would be more like admitting that you turned down a (possible reasonable) offer of employment. Do you have any evidence they offered this?

At a hearing - It could be possible that the ALJ would at least knock it down from a gross misconduct to a misconduct (which has far fewer penalties attached). It would take convincing the ALJ that the behavior was not willful or wanton. It would help if you had some type of evidence that you actually attempted to pay them back before they came to fire you. Even a phone record that you called them before they called you that day might help (though it not really what I would consider really good evidence). But you might have enough to shift it from "We caught him stealing and fired him" to "This was a big misunderstanding and I honestly though I had permission." That doesn't mean you get a free pass -- but it could possibly lessen the penalty.

You might also luck out to where the employer doesn't show up for the hearing. But it still sounds like there is already some pretty harmful evidence in the file.

Unfortunately my power is out due to finances (In dire straights why I need this UI)


Otherwise I would have had an hour of video evidence of me and them going back and forth about the job offer and me signing the papers putting a big X through the Written Warning part of the termination because I didn't get a warning after I was fired.


I can pull my information from that day showing me pulling out money and calling them and then the 3 hour delay between "Yeah it's fine coming up to pay us" to "Were coming over because we have some business in the area and you don't have any work today anyway"


Also my brother watched this go down, We live in a duplex he stays in the other side and drives me around since I don't have a vehicle, They let me keep the company tablet for a day while I considered the employment, but as I told them it's way too low paying job and I don't even have a vehicle to do the job (Put demands on the job that they knew I couldn't commit to, and they wouldn't answer on if they would drive me around)


I was being paid full time Salary for a newly created business that obviously overestimated the amount of work they had, I would sometimes sit at home waiting to work but still get paid because the agreement was salary, They kept asking me to do Door to Door sales during the slow time but as I told them I'm covered in pesticides and sweating and stinking all day people don't want me at their door.


My conclusion because the other tech told me the day before the two Co-owners haven't even been paid yet and the fact that they switched payroll and pay structure without warning lead me to believe they couldn't afford me as a full time tech, and saw this as an opportunity to get rid of a hemorrhage.


The night before I was fired they asked me "Hey Cole said you have a list of pesticides and other information we could use to save money "Literally knew ways to save them 100's a week"


I gave them the information and the next day unfolded.


My gut told me something fishy was going on when I wasn't getting paid on the correct paydate.


Later this seem confirmed because the ad they listed on Craigslist for the job mentioned $2500 Salary base, Bonus for working weekends (Never got paid that bonus) and $50-100 Commission per sale (Made two sales received nothing but them saying "We got you we will pay you ourselves if we have too"


Then after I got fired they pulled the old ad and posted a new one for a "Part Time Tech" with No weekend bonus, No Commission and $1200 Monthly pay.


I do have some screenshots, also emails between me and the owners wife who does Payroll about requesting information and also having to demand to be paid my last paycheck, They withheld it past the final payday and made me come to their office even though they knew I had to arrange to get a vehicle... Like I said before soon as I filed unemployment they became very snarky.

[janja1]

Originally Posted by Leonalexander

Like I said before soon as I filed unemployment they became very snarky.

It sounds like they got pretty snarky before you filed for UI.

And yes -- it sounds like they might have seen it as an opportunity to shift you from the salary position to commission sales. Proving that would be another issue.