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Thanks, cgregor! Great information. Obviously, since you live in VT, your preference must be there, but have you spent much time in the WNC area? Any comparisons on the level of community interaction in both places? We're looking for open-minded folks and a close knit community feel. We'd like to get to know people and put down roots. To be honest, there seems to be a very active propaganda machine in that particular forum that shoots down any negative comments. It's either THE BEST PLACE TO LIVE IN THE WHOLE ENTIRE WORLD! or there are some very vested interests at play over there. It would be great to get some less biased comments from people familiar with both areas.
I'm not at liberty to release more specific information, but dig around to find out which county within 35 miles of Asheville voted to go wet within the last decade. You'll be able to find the well-known local who spearheaded it against heavy (including out-of-state religious) opposition. That person boosts the town a bit but the Vermont attitude even more-- and will have a good idea of the whereabouts of other like-minded people in NC.
I grew up in the Upper Valley and live in NC. I do agree with some of the stuff said, most of what people have said here is over exaggerated though. Isolated incidents do not represent the whole. But culturally this just is not New England. And let me tell you...I find that PA, NY, NC, MD, VA people do better here...most New Englanders I know leave because the culture isn't what we have grown to love and most certain expect out of life...peace and quiet...
Let me put it this way. If the climate were the same in VT as NC then there is no way in heck I would subject myself to what you see down here.
I simply cannot stand the following:
-Hard to find good labor (landscaping, handyman, plumber, etc.) as they are all lazy
-The traffic is simply ridiculous
-The beaches and mountains are slam packed with people...nevermind the traffic to get there
-Noise pollution, oh the noise, (trains, planes, factories, cars, etc) if you need to live anywhere near a suburb.
-The lakes are fake. They are diverted rivers from the energy plants
-Restaurant food is horrible and if you do find a good place it isn't the same twice
-Yes, lots of religion. They don't ask much about it, but I am certain you are judged.
-Dating scene is horrible if you are single
-Ability to find a nice house with acreage (500K) forget about it again unless you live where there are no jobs.
I can go on but the traffic drives me up the wall the most.
The biggest difference for me between southern Vermont and the Asheville area is the economy and population size. Economy is very good in Asheville, if you buy real estate the value goes up. In Vt you could purchase a house, sell it 8 years later and the price might be the same. Businesses in Vt would close due to lack of customers. It's a small place, there are not enough people to support most businesses especially multiple restaurants in a town of 12,000. Vt because of it's small population size had more of a community feel. Easier to get involved locally. Actually difficult to not get involved. In Asheville area people are very friendly due to most of them being recent transplants and wanting to make friends. Milder weather, longer spring, summer and fall. Less humidity and less buggy then Vt. But more mainstream, more chain businesses, traffic, billboards.
Hello again, Friends. OP here. Well, I moved to Durham NC in July 2018 so my wife could work at Duke Children’s Hospital. We are moving back to New England.
We were able to buy a house for <$350k in what I’ll call the coveted Duke Forest neighborhood 2.5 years ago, and it has appreciated by literally 50% given the growth of Durham (100 people per week move to the triangle with a large part presumably to Durham based on what I see downtown). I share that number as full transparency (vs bragging), and in response to the previous “buy a house in VT and 8 years later it’s worth what you paid” remark. +1 for here, in that sense. Do note well, however, that there is so much land and sprawl around that it’s scalpel specific as to what neighborhoods appreciate). Our side of the street is currently districted to an 8/10 rated elementary school. The other side of the street a 2/10. NC is also 48th best in education, so that’s still probably terrible. The middle and high schools in our district are also terrible, so many people here (like my neighbors) pay $18k/yr to send their kids to Durham Academy private school, and then say it’s cheaper than the added housing cost and property taxes of moving to Chapel Hill / Carborro. I’d assume that to be true.
Why move back? For every single reason that’s been presented here We tried it, we wanted to like it, we worked at making community (covid made it hard, obviously), but— and this is disappointing about ourselves in that it says/proves we aren’t as flexible as we’d like to think— we just don’t like the “culture” here. There’s a disconnect. Something isn’t right. Could it be the accents? (Note: It’s class driven, since every cashier, tradesperson, phone operator, etc., has the y’all drawl, and everyone in a bar tending position, hair cutting, or white collar job seems to be neutral or clearly foreign. The younger people from here leave; the younger people from elsewhere come; there seem to be no white collar (which I use colloquially, non judgey, as an efficient way to differentiate profession types, not worth of those possessions— we all need people from each sector, be it doctor or mechanic or plumber or store manager) workers from here. So back to the liberal bubble, if that’s all you deal with, you don’t hear any accents until you interact with someone usually on a “I’ll pay you to do this for me” basis, which is uncomfortable (and again, probably just more telling of my own privilege, guilt, and future humanist world hopes) and head snapping distinct. It makes you feel like an outsider.
And while Durham was 80% Democrat in 2020, ohhhh MAN was it a different story out of the bubble. My new saying after being here 2.5 years, is that every 10 minutes out of town is like driving 10 years back in time (if not more). Holy sh*t does it drop off fast! You’ll never see more satellite dishes, trailers, homemade Trump billboards, six cars per house, two boat hulls (not boats), and what surely is the greatest case of mass government-sanctioned Stockholm syndrome on record. Why else would people making $30k get so angry at the idea of raising minimum wage? It’s bizarre. But that bubble? A nice place to live. We just can’t do it anymore.
Asheville is really far (3 hours), and is way better looking online than in reality. I was majorly duped by their tourism campaign. It is not a warm weather Burlington. It’s small, expensive, and surrounded by bubbas. We went three times and just don’t want to do the drive anymore. A big reason for that is, in NE, you can get off at any exit and when you go into ANY establishment, even the ones with the old manually spinning gas pump meters, the music inside doesn’t stop and everyone stop chewing/talking and look at you, hoping you back out. Are the people friendly inside? Well they’re not unfriendly, but it’s always been very slow exchanges, like a hostage exchange— they seem uncomfortable or untrusting. And there’s no scenic route to get there— just flat, fast highway with zero towns of interest along the way. I bought an old school map book with places to see by grid; nothing worth visiting, and the mountains are really hot and humid (not a nice cool air retreat like in NE. And I know those are massively over generalized statements, but if you read my earlier posts, you’ll have context to know I wanted, very very much, to make this work. The things I’m saying are way more true than untrue, but per usual YMMV.
We never bothered going to the coast, since it also is 3+ hours away and that’s just really far (bad traffic also, similar to Cape Cod). So Durham is the sport utility vehicle of towns. Pretty good at a few things but not great at any. It’s not near the mountains, not near the coast, and has no water to speak or apart from treatment plants, brown rivers, and two small lakes 25 min away (most people who want to boat drive an hour and a half to Lake Gaston).
Chapel Hill seems too far to drive (25), and Raleigh at 40 is a forget about it (offers nothing else from Durham). The airport is fantastic, though, and the only thing I’ll truly miss about this place. It makes Providence look like Logan, though without PreCheck the lines are long (they’re doubling its size so it will even out).
My wife’s commute is 7 minutes. We are 10 minutes from downtown Durham, on lovely scenic backroads— then poof, buildings. In our grid of neighborhood streets, we walk our dog and baby stroller right down the center of the road, which is nice.
The humidity is endless, it’s 80+ from March through October (way too long), and once it’s 55 you are somehow freezing cold. I hoped we would be the people in shorts all winter, smugly looking at the bundled-up locals who don’t have “thick New England blood”, but we’d visit family in September in MA and be cold in pants(!) and wear full winter hats and jackets in the 40s. I’m amazed how quickly we adjusted (again, I lived in Burlington a while and snowshoe! But here? Don’t go out it’s too cold [checks temp: 41]). There’s only about one maybe two snow events a year, which is magical and not enough, but they really don’t plow or have salt, so you have to stay home (not because you can’t drive in it, but because everyone else can’t and they often declare an emergency banning you). Without snow blanketing the ground, it’s just brown and dead like early December (stick season!) for 3-4 months, which feels really long. I’d rather the snow, deciding that complaining about it by late Feb is better than not having it.
Oh and the copperheads. Snake bite capitol of the US (nearly 700 per year! And once you’re bit, you’ll be careful and your family and friends will be careful, so there’s a growing network of careful people yet continued and increasing bites) we see a copperhead at least once a week on our walks. You have to walk head down, clearing each tree root and stick like Terminator, knowing even still they’re masters of disguise.
We did some house and yard upgrades, needing different trades, and they were the slowest, laziest, most shoddy craftsmen I’ve ever known. Every single one was worse than the last, and these were the best recommended ones. I mean it— every one would be out of business in a week up north. I’m talking AC leaks, a tipping over toilet, peeling interior paint, sprinkler blowouts and flooding, grading issues, you name it— each one was somehow worse than the previous.
Despite the words used in this post, I really don’t want to sound like I’m complaining— and will walk away with money in my pocket because of my home— but want to leave a record for posterity that it really is another world here. The Jesus stuff is also in your face as feared. There are so many religious lawn signs and billboards you’d swear he’s running for elected office. And when you flip through the car radio stations, it’s conservative talk radio or priests.
Oh yea, the driving out of the bubble, we don’t bother anymore. There’s no joy in taking a scenic drive because you realize— especially after the election— just how little there is for you there. I miss driving around, taking in the sights. I didn’t know how much I liked doing that until I can’t (it’s sad to do here). So I basically don’t leave the bubble except for a trail walk (and once you do, in covid terms, you see a lot of anti maskers which snaps you out of the “this is nice” mindset (if the Bigfoot swamp scenery /aesthetic doesn’t).
I didn’t teach here. It would’ve been a 50% pay cut from MA (and I was only a fourth year), and taken 25 more years until I finally earn what I made before. Then your pension would also be 12% not 80%. And, after all the teacher strikes, the only response passed by the legislature was to require “in god we trust” be prominently placed inside the entrance of all public schools. Seriously. Teachers had to pay to hire their own subs so they could go on strike. If NC was 48th in football or basketball it would be a problem.
We are looking back at the Providence metro to be nearer family (now that we have a baby, going back to my love of VT would be much less convenient for visits to/from aging grandparents) and the Portland ME metro (which would be 2.5 hours from both sets; Burlington would be 4 hours and 7 hours; Brattleboro also too far). Someday we’ll probably get back, but not for this next phase where family, cousins, etc are important for our kid and future kids. I’d rather suck it up and live in RI than stay here any longer. The bubble is nice, but the bubble isn’t real. And you can’t leave the bubble without being reminded how ****ty much of NC is, how unequal our society is, and how unfair so much is to so many. Is New England just a larger bubble? Yes, in a very real way, but we can drive for 7 hours in any of the states and have it still feel like home. That’s a pretty good size bubble; one I can live with/in/for.
Happy to answer anyone’s questions, for I’ve thought about this way more than anyone should, both while here for a one month trial, for a year after, and then for 2.5 since moving here. I love the concepts and questions, so please do ask.
Not this go-round but yes on the last; was too far from family. Both sides of our families are in New England and we are choosing to be near them for child raising purposes (so that our kid(s) have grandparents, cousins, aunts & uncles, etc). Our parents are 70ish and it’s easier / better for them to be a drive away vs flight, too (and selfishly for us so we don’t need to use all vacation time visiting them!). It’s just gonna have to be a compromise, that’s all.
Try Hartford CT. There's a lot of areas SW of Hartford that have Yankees/Giants/Rangers games on (Blah!) but its pretty cheap and high quality schools/neighborhoods.
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We tried it, we wanted to like it, we worked at making community (covid made it hard, obviously), but— and this is disappointing about ourselves in that it says/proves we aren’t as flexible as we’d like to think— we just don’t like the “culture” here. There’s a disconnect. Something isn’t right. Could it be the accents? (Note: It’s class driven, since every cashier, tradesperson, phone operator, etc., has the y’all drawl, and everyone in a bar tending position, hair cutting, or white collar job seems to be neutral or clearly foreign. The younger people from here leave; the younger people from elsewhere come; there seem to be no white collar (which I use colloquially, non judgey, as an efficient way to differentiate profession types, not worth of those possessions— we all need people from each sector, be it doctor or mechanic or plumber or store manager) workers from here. So back to the liberal bubble, if that’s all you deal with, you don’t hear any accents until you interact with someone usually on a “I’ll pay you to do this for me” basis, which is uncomfortable (and again, probably just more telling of my own privilege, guilt, and future humanist world hopes) and head snapping distinct. It makes you feel like an outsider.
