[ex-springfielder]

Originally Posted by tallydude02

Vermont tends to rank high in many of the good areas, including income and education.

On paper Vermont looks good.

Not sure where you've been reading those statistics but Vermont ranks in the bottom 25% in income and the top 10% in taxes. Vermont also ranks #1 in liberal/socialist politics, apparently those don't mix well with business or income opportunities, but if you want to live in a government subsidized apartment and collect food stamps vermont is a great place.

[Wingfoot]

Originally Posted by mustmove

No income tax in NH and NH is a lot more business friendly in regards to both permitting and taxes. NH always does better than VT, not sure how great everything is overall. Some of NH's numbers will be skewed by the Northern MA section of the state.

ALL of NH's numbers are skewed it being North Mass.
Vermont is a suburb of NYC in many ways but can't access the higher wages like NH can.

[OhBeeHave]

Originally Posted by Wingfoot

Vermont is a suburb of NYC in many ways but can't access the higher wages like NH can.

Thanks for the giggle. I snorted coffee out my nose!

[Wingfoot]

Originally Posted by OhBeeHave

Thanks for the giggle. I snorted coffee out my nose!

Giggle on,43% of Vermont real estate taxes are paid by people with address in greater NYC area.

[RunawayJim]

Originally Posted by Wingfoot

Giggle on,43% of Vermont real estate taxes are paid by people with address in greater NYC area.

Is that primarily because they own condos near the ski resorts?

[OhBeeHave]

Originally Posted by Wingfoot

Giggle on,43% of Vermont real estate taxes are paid by people with address in greater NYC area.

So second homeowners are paying VT RE taxes, how does that make VT a 'suburb' of NYC? Is any of this tax money being filtered into NYS? What portion of the taxes are paying the NYS MTA tax? Where do you get the 43% figure from? Does VT not have any 2nd homeowners from NJ, CT, MA, etc.?

If these taxpayers had their primary residence as VT and were commuting from VT to NYC on a regular basis, paying NYC tax on their income, then you might argue that VT was a bedroom community. You would find (if the state weren't so antibusiness) more business cropping up addressing the needs of the full time residents as opposed to those catering to the part time vacation crowd. That's what I see more often in NH. People live and work in Concord, Lebanon, etc. They aren't driving back and forth to Boston to make a good living.

You also wrote that "ALL of NH's numbers are skewed it being North Mass." Many of us NYers are buying in NH, too. IMHO NH holds it's own because it is more business and development friendly vs. VT; proximity to Boston is not the sole reason.

[RunawayJim]

Originally Posted by OhBeeHave

So second homeowners are paying VT RE taxes, how does that make VT a 'suburb' of NYC? Is any of this tax money being filtered into NYS? What portion of the taxes are paying the NYS MTA tax? Where do you get the 43% figure from? Does VT not have any 2nd homeowners from NJ, CT, MA, etc.?

If these taxpayers had their primary residence as VT and were commuting from VT to NYC on a regular basis, paying NYC tax on their income, then you might argue that VT was a bedroom community. You would find (if the state weren't so antibusiness) more business cropping up addressing the needs of the full time residents as opposed to those catering to the part time vacation crowd. That's what I see more often in NH. People live and work in Concord, Lebanon, etc. They aren't driving back and forth to Boston to make a good living.

You also wrote that "ALL of NH's numbers are skewed it being North Mass." Many of us NYers are buying in NH, too. IMHO NH holds it's own because it is more business and development friendly vs. VT; proximity to Boston is not the sole reason.

Proximity to Boston may not be the sole reason, but it's one of the bigger reasons. Also, development friendly states aren't necessarily great for all those who are there. I'm all for being business friendly, but being strict on development/zoning laws is not necessarily a bad thing.

Southern NH wouldn't be what it is without its proximity to Boston, even if it were less friendly to business.

[mustmove]

Originally Posted by RunawayJim

Proximity to Boston may not be the sole reason, but it's one of the bigger reasons. Also, development friendly states aren't necessarily great for all those who are there. I'm all for being business friendly, but being strict on development/zoning laws is not necessarily a bad thing.

Southern NH wouldn't be what it is without its proximity to Boston, even if it were less friendly to business.

NH is leaps and bounds friendlier to business than VT, I've lived in several places in both states and didn't see a quality of life impact from NH being business friendly. Tell yourself that all you want, VT has sold itself an empty bag of goods.

[Logs and Dogs]

Kind of an interesting way to jump in for a first post, but hey what the heck…….

My wife and I just spent 50 straight weekends building our cabin in VT (NEK), of course I’m sure the initial impressions of us based on the license plate etc. are typical “flatlander” stereotypes, until people got to know us and realized we just want to be left alone to live, bike, snowshoe, hunt, and enjoy what is here and not change a thing. We haven’t encountered much “hostility” towards us, which is nice; then again we made sure we did what we could with local vendors and businesses as well, which have developed some friendships. Frankly, I don’t expect people come up our drive and talk to us, it would be great if they did, and I say hello to everyone, but I will not give them an excuse to not at least respect us. We aren’t the typical “flatlanders” we just didn’t win the gene lottery on where we were born. We gladly stack wood in -10 degrees for hours on end, work all weekend building, planting, cutting, splitting, etc. I’m not sure what is more VT than approaching life in that way.

The sustainability of VT huh? Interesting, let’s see, the current population in my area complains about no jobs, no affordable housing and nothing to do. The state doesn’t want “developments” and has laws to discourage it, and the population doesn’t want more mobile homes, which are often an NEK resident’s first purchase. I ran the numbers several ways with some builders I know in the area on the affordable housing issue and even bare bones multi unit rental housing (which most people would agree is not desirable) would require a monthly rental level above what the area could sustain to cashflow properly. So what can be done about increasing opportunities for a decent wage? That is the question, right?

It is very hard to start a business in VT right now, period. The tax climate makes being a resident of VT and trying to live on VT wages a tough pill to swallow even for non-extravagant lifestyles. The niche businesses that have come at a traditional New England staple (farming etc.) from a more modern angle are successful, but they are small operations with limited markets so they are nice to have, but cannot carry the economy. It seems the suggestions to reduce the largess of government in VT (read government spending) while simultaneously increasing the production (income) is the only way VT will become more sustainable. Tehre are strengths in VT that can be assets……….I love the “BuyVT” attitude and support of local businesses, Vermonters buy local with fervor, it would be great to also compliment that with the right mix of traditional corporate jobs, done the right way. If done wrong it is a slippery slope, before you know it, all the things people still run away from in Southern New England suddenly show up in mass.

One more thing on the whole “flatlander” thing (can you see it gets under my skin), while I refuse to speak for the NYC Land Rover crowd as they can indeed start changing a small VT town, I will say many of us folks from “away” chose VT for a reason, out of all the other places we could go, we chose VT, we will fight good and hard to see that it doesn’t become like what we ran away from. Why would we? It makes no sense.

[RunawayJim]

Originally Posted by ex-springfielder

As a sixty year old that was born and lived all but a couple years of my life in Vermont I have to agree with the authors veiws, Vermont has changed so much in the past thirty years it's become the opposite of what it was once famous for...conservative, hard working, old time yankee's. Dean, Bernie, Kunin, all transplants that found tiny Vermont an easy place to enter politics and bring their socialists ideas and agenda's that appealled to the new Vermonters that came to Vermont from NY, CT and NJ. I consider myself lucky I got out just in time, my children all went to college, are smart, good people and they all left the state to find decent employment which offers a decent life. Vermont is not what it was, too many government regulations and employees which cause high taxes, the combination is deadly for attracting business. The leaders of Vermonts government should be ashamed for what they are taking from the populace and what they are giving in return. Vermont is in a death spiral that I do not see changing, each year getting worse than the last.

I've been thinking about this post and how people move to VT because it's easy to enter politics. The more I thought about it, the more it doesn't make sense, at least to me. Someone had to vote these people into office. I mean, it's not like VT is this weird dictatorship where people are appointed into every branch and level of the state government.

So my point is, either the people in your government lied to you when they were campaigning, in which case you can just vote them out, or the majority of the people who live in VT are in favor of more liberal politics, in which case, get out and vote and endorse the candidates that you like or run for office yourself (after all, it's easy to enter politics there, right?).

That's just my 2 cents on the issue. If you don't vote, you have no right to complain. If you don't get involved, you have no right to complain. But if you don't like the American political system, well... I don't know what to tell you.