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Fake birth certificates of a child I didn't birth? How insulting but yet I giggle a bit. As much as you will hate me, I'm so glad that we got a new birth certificate issued for our children when they came into the US. Having a confusing Russian document would give your typical government worker a fit when doing things things like Passports or getting a driver's license. To make matters worse, we readopted in the US to have a birth certificate issued by the state to make it a bit easier for our kids down the road. They have a nice easy (insert state here) birth certificate. And sin upon sin, we Americanized our kids' names keeping Russian names as their middle names. Fortunately, we do have copies of the original birth certificates so at least they can trace down their parents if they feel the need at some later date. I guess that is one benefit to doing an international adoption. You do know the details. If they feel strongly enough about having a crappy life as an adopted child, they can always change their names back to their Russian ones. We will always be honest and open with them and share any information we have.
Again though, I will ask this question of you and that other poster who said something like we aren't the real parents of our adopted kids. If I'm not mom (or dad in my husband's case), what would you have my 10 year old son call me? Mrs. Smith? Hey You? Or is this whole debate just about fake birth certifiates?
Fake birth certificates of a child I didn't birth? Read what you have just said - you didn't give birth to your child so a new "birth" certificate is a misnomer which is what gcm is trying to point out by calling them "fake". At no time is she implying that you aren't the child's mother, in fact she specifically says: Adoptive parents do not need a fake birth certificate claiming that they are the biological parents of a child they did not create or birth in order to parent that child. Or to have that child take their surname. Or to name the child whatever they want. Or to have the child call them "mom and dad." (that last bit should answer your last question)
I have no doubt Linmora that whether or not your replacement certificate was called a "birth certificate" or "legal certificate" or any other name, you would still consider yourself the mother of your children, it is not the structure or type of certificate itself that makes you the mother of your children.
Btw I have seen a few adoptive parents who have stated that they think it odd that the replacement certificate was also called a "birth" certificate - they didn't realise that that is what happens.
One thing I do understand that people raise when it comes to birth certificates is that they don't think the certificate of an adopted person should look any different to that of a non-adopted person and that is a perfectly valid point.
My idea would be to have everyone, non-adopted or adopted, to have both a birth certificate and legal certificate - they would be identical in the case of non-adopted people (thus requiring hardly any extra work except to have the identical details placed on both a "birth" certificate" and "legal certificate") and in the case of adopted children, there would be a "birth certificate" and "legal certificate" in the names of the biological parents at birth, with the legal certificate then transferred over to the adoptive parents at TPR or whoever the legal guardian is at the time between TPR and finalisation (perhaps with "pending" printed on the legal certificate during that time (at present, only birth certificate between TPR and finalisation of adoption is the original one so it wouldn't be creating more problems having a pending certificate (I'm talking domestic adoptions here)). Just some thoughts.
For those who adopted domestically, what is the situation between TPR and finalisation when it comes to having to use birth certificates? Presumably, one needs to use the original certificate but also needs to provide proof of your parentage? This is a genuine question because I do remember this being raised elsewhere on another forum and the adoptive parents had a bit of problem knowing what to use during that time.
Last edited by susankate; 10-23-2012 at 09:45 PM..
Fake birth certificates of a child I didn't birth? How insulting but yet I giggle a bit. As much as you will hate me, I'm so glad that we got a new birth certificate issued for our children when they came into the US. Having a confusing Russian document would give your typical government worker a fit when doing things things like Passports or getting a driver's license. To make matters worse, we readopted in the US to have a birth certificate issued by the state to make it a bit easier for our kids down the road. They have a nice easy (insert state here) birth certificate. And sin upon sin, we Americanized our kids' names keeping Russian names as their middle names. Fortunately, we do have copies of the original birth certificates so at least they can trace down their parents if they feel the need at some later date. I guess that is one benefit to doing an international adoption. You do know the details. If they feel strongly enough about having a crappy life as an adopted child, they can always change their names back to their Russian ones. We will always be honest and open with them and share any information we have.
Again though, I will ask this question of you and that other poster who said something like we aren't the real parents of our adopted kids. If I'm not mom (or dad in my husband's case), what would you have my 10 year old son call me? Mrs. Smith? Hey You? Or is this whole debate just about fake birth certifiates?
You are confusing two differing positions and two posters with very different ideas.
You are clearly your child's parent. Regardless of what Oleg pretends to know anything about. All adoptive parents are parents and thus should be called mom, dad, etc, whatever works for their family.
What gmc is saying is that there is no need to falsify a BIRTH certificate. You are a parent through adoption, not birth, but a parent never the less. So why falsify a birth certificate? In other countries parenthood is established by adoption papers, guardianship papers, etc not through a FALSIFIED BIRTH certificate.
We do not falsify birth certificates for children adopted by stepparents. Those kids get a name change, and still use the original, not FAKE birth certificate AND show their adoption papers as well. The same way married woman just show their marriage certificate as well as their original birth certificate.
That is what many adoptees want. Their original birth certificate.
Btw, while you may not want to "deal" with a russian document, many immigrants who arrive in this country do all the time. Government workers deal with them just fine. My sister was born abroad and has a non-English birth certificate. DMV, schools, financial aid, the court system, literally every government worker we have ever dealt with didn't even blink. So please give the professionals who are trained in how to deal with documents both foreign and domestic some credit.
Fake birth certificates of a child I didn't birth? Read what you have just said - you didn't give birth to your child so a new "birth" certificate is a misnomer which is what gcm is trying to point out by calling them "fake". At no time is she implying that you aren't the child's mother, in fact she specifically says: Adoptive parents do not need a fake birth certificate claiming that they are the biological parents of a child they did not create or birth in order to parent that child. Or to have that child take their surname. Or to name the child whatever they want. Or to have the child call them "mom and dad." (that last bit should answer your last question)
I have no doubt Linmora that whether or not your replacement certificate was called a "birth certificate" or "legal certificate" or any other name, you would still consider yourself the mother of your children, it is not the structure or type of certificate itself that makes you the mother of your children.
Btw I have seen a few adoptive parents who have stated that they think it odd that the replacement certificate was also called a "birth" certificate - they didn't realise that that is what happens.
One thing I do understand that people raise when it comes to birth certificates is that they don't think the certificate of an adopted person should look any different to that of a non-adopted person and that is a perfectly valid point.
My idea would be to have everyone, non-adopted or adopted, to have both a birth certificate and legal certificate - they would be identical in the case of non-adopted people (thus requiring hardly any extra work except to have the identical details placed on both a "birth" certificate" and "legal certificate") and in the case of adopted children, there would be a "birth certificate" and "legal certificate" in the names of the biological parents at birth, with the legal certificate then transferred over to the adoptive parents at TPR or whoever the legal guardian is at the time between TPR and finalisation (perhaps with "pending" printed on the legal certificate during that time (at present, only birth certificate between TPR and finalisation of adoption is the original one so it wouldn't be creating more problems having a pending certificate (I'm talking domestic adoptions here)). Just some thoughts.
I did carefully read gcm's post see what they are getting at. Is is how it is being worded that gets my ire up. We throw around "fake" pretty casually and with a great deal of anger. Yes, I realize that I didn't "birth" my kids. We have a "revised" birth certificate. However, there isn't anything "fake" about our certificate. We took legal steps to adopt our kids---both in Russia and the US. Russia shows up as their place of birth but we are listed as the parents. Once again, we have the copies of their original certificates locked away which they are free to have along with their adoption packet when they are an adult. What we have in our state is a "birth" certificate--- a clear cut legal document. I'm so glad that we did readopt them in the US, otherwise they would have something strange looking that would give the schools, the soccer teams, the passport agency, the DMV fits when they would show it. I remember pulling out our piece of paper prior to readoption and getting some pushback from a school I think when I told them that this was all I had. Again, this is an international adoption situation and not domestic. I was quite relieved when we finally did get the certificate from our state. It will make it easier for all of us in the long run.
As a compromise, the birth certificate/legal document approach sounds like a good one. It seems that "birth" certificate is giving adult adoptees the most angst since adoptive parents can't claim that right. If the child received a "legal" certificate instead that could be used for the various beaucratic needs that pop up, would that ease some of discomfort on the part of adoptees? Personally I don't care but I wouldn't want my children facing any paperwork hurdles down the road. As long as the "legal" document would trump the "birth" certificate in terms of paperwork requirements, I would be fine with that. I wouldn't want to be facing down that spectacularly unhelpful woman in the DMV line when my kid is of driving age. "Ma'am, this here is a "legal" document. I need to see the birth certificate...................Oh, you aren't the parent. I need to have the parents here. Next in line please." (Sorry had to take that dig at our DMV. They have gotten more polite since a big shake up a few years ago.)
You are confusing two differing positions and two posters with very different ideas.
You are clearly your child's parent. Regardless of what Oleg pretends to know anything about. All adoptive parents are parents and thus should be called mom, dad, etc, whatever works for their family.
What gmc is saying is that there is no need to falsify a BIRTH certificate. You are a parent through adoption, not birth, but a parent never the less. So why falsify a birth certificate? In other countries parenthood is established by adoption papers, guardianship papers, etc not through a FALSIFIED BIRTH certificate.
We do not falsify birth certificates for children adopted by stepparents. Those kids get a name change, and still use the original, not FAKE birth certificate AND show their adoption papers as well. The same way married woman just show their marriage certificate as well as their original birth certificate.
That is what many adoptees want. Their original birth certificate.
Btw, while you may not want to "deal" with a russian document, many immigrants who arrive in this country do all the time. Government workers deal with them just fine. My sister was born abroad and has a non-English birth certificate. DMV, schools, financial aid, the court system, literally every government worker we have ever dealt with didn't even blink. So please give the professionals who are trained in how to deal with documents both foreign and domestic some credit.
I will repeat it again----we didn't falsify anything. We took all proper legal actions, both within Russia and the United States to legally adopt our kids and we received REVISED birth certificates. Falsifying a document would imply that we did something illegal and unethical and could go to jail. I can assume you that we did everything above board.
Secondly, why should my kids have to deal with a Russian document? They are US citizens. Giving them a US birth certificate was the last process in our readoption in the US. So glad that we did. Again, we have copies of their original paperwork with birthparents, birthnames etc. Nothing is hidden although for domestic adoptions, I do understand the process is much different.
It seems that "birth" certificate is giving adult adoptees the most angst since adoptive parents can't claim that right. If the child received a "legal" certificate instead that could be used for the various beaucratic needs that pop up, would that ease some of discomfort on the part of adoptees?
Yes! Absolutely! This is exactly what many of us would like to have happen. And this is exactly what happens in other countries.
Our birth certificates should never be "revised" because those "revisions" are actually false information and create a false reality. As I pointed out earlier, there is no indication on our amended/revised/fake birth certificates that an adoption even took place. So unless someone tells us, we have no legal right to know that we were adopted. Even after we reach adulthood.
Linmora, nobody is saying that adoptive parents falsify birth certificates. State governments falsify birth certificates and the adoptive parents have no choice in the matter currently. I suppose that it would be my hope that more adoptive parents would speak out against this archaic practice and demand that truth and honesty prevail within the legalities of adoption--because that's what is best for the adoptee and ultimately the adoptive parents as well.
Adoptive parents can receive an adoption certificate of some kind to *legally* represent the newly created parent-child relationship. The adoption certificate would afford the adoptive parents the rights of any legal parent, including the ability to name a child. The child's birth certificate, however, will remain factual, in tact and available to the adoptee. This way, adoptees are *legally* recognized as individual parties who are fully empowered to *legally* know the truth about themselves without have to rely solely on a third party.
I support the establishing of a legal adoption/guardianship system that is based on truth and honesty instead of denial of facts and falsified birth certificates. Because this creates a more legally ethical system for all involved, including the mothers who relinquish. And there are many who feel the same. This does not make us "anti adoption" as a concept. But I suppose that it makes us "anti adoption" as it is currently practiced with falsified birth certificates.
I will repeat it again----we didn't falsify anything. We took all proper legal actions, both within Russia and the United States to legally adopt our kids and we received REVISED birth certificates. Falsifying a document would imply that we did something illegal and unethical and could go to jail. I can assume you that we did everything above board.
Linmora, nobody has said that adoptive parents falsify birth certificates. State governments falsify birth certificates. Which, as you pointed here, would be illegal and unethical if you did so. Yet, why is it acceptable for state governments to take such actions? Apparently, when it involves adoption and an adoptee, it is perceived as ethically sound and acceptable for state governments to engage in the illegal and unethical falsifying of official documents. I do not find this practice to be ethically sound or acceptable, however. And there are many who agree with me.
As I mentioned earlier, it would be my hope that more adoptive parents would speak out against this particular adoption practice as it is conducted by state governments. If more adoptive parents demanded legal truth and honesty on behalf of adopted children, perhaps the state governments would have to listen and reconsider. And then adoption could be legally more respectful of relinquishing parents, adoptees and adoptive parents.
As a compromise, the birth certificate/legal document approach sounds like a good one. It seems that "birth" certificate is giving adult adoptees the most angst since adoptive parents can't claim that right. If the child received a "legal" certificate instead that could be used for the various beaucratic needs that pop up, would that ease some of discomfort on the part of adoptees? Personally I don't care but I wouldn't want my children facing any paperwork hurdles down the road. As long as the "legal" document would trump the "birth" certificate in terms of paperwork requirements, I would be fine with that.
That is exactly what I meant - that is the point of what the legal document would be for - it would be used for everything - the birth certificate for both adoptees and non-adoptees would be just that, a certificate recording one's birth.
Re the use of "fake", I've known a couple of APs who, when receiving their revised birth certificates, have said "why am I receiving a birth certificate which implies I gave birth to my child?" and have even said that it seems so fake, so it is not just adoptees who think like that.
I will repeat it again----we didn't falsify anything. We took all proper legal actions, both within Russia and the United States to legally adopt our kids and we received REVISED birth certificates. Falsifying a document would imply that we did something illegal and unethical and could go to jail. I can assume you that we did everything above board.
Secondly, why should my kids have to deal with a Russian document? They are US citizens. Giving them a US birth certificate was the last process in our readoption in the US. So glad that we did. Again, we have copies of their original paperwork with birthparents, birthnames etc. Nothing is hidden although for domestic adoptions, I do understand the process is much different.
1. It's a falsified BIRTH certificate because it contains FALSE information namely who gave birth to the adoptee. No one said anywhere that YOU falsified the birth certificate anywhere. Please try to read what is written instead of being hyper-reactionary to things that were NEVER stated.
2. Maybe you are unaware but many American citizens were immigrants. We do not falsify a birth certificate when people become citizens. And the reason your children should have to "deal" (whatever that means) with a foreign birth certificate is because they were BIRTHED in Russia. That isnt a negative thing, or a burden, its just reality. My sister was born an American citizen and not adopted into citizenship like your children were and she has to "deal" with her birth certificate because she was born abroad to American parents.
You act as if there is some sort of problems associated with a foreign birth certificate. There is not. My sister has in addition to her BC a consular's report. Whoop dee doo.
3. Nothing is hidden if YOU chose for it not to be and that is nice of you. But it is wrong that it is not because your children have a fundamental right to their information. All people regardless of how their family came to be have a right to their own birth certificate.
I posted a long reply on the other thread but deleted my message with respect to Dark's request to stay on topic. Didn't see this new thread so my new message will be a bit truncated from what I originally wrote.
IKB0714, I'm not trying to be "hyper-reactionary." Obviously, I possess reading comphrension skills to know that the posts aren't directed to me personally but more towards an adoptee preceived problem with the system. Secondly, I do know that many Americans are immigrants and have various forms of documentation. You stated the obvious--thank you. I did finish high school after all!!! That doesn't change the fact that I readopted my kids in the US and now they have a state issued "revised" birth certificate. This is the form I use for all transactions where a birth certificate is required. I don't see the problem. Obviously you do. We differ in our opinions and no amount of back and forths will change that opinion. You did state that you were going to get heavily involved in adoption reform in the future. I encourage you to do that if you feel this strongly. Your energies can be better spent doing this versus taking it out on posters that may disagree with you.
To the other posters, I would suggest adopting more of a middle ground on this topic. Instead of throwing the words "falsify" around, why not address the problem of "state revised" birth certificates? This way, you can make your points without raising the ire of adoptive parents who maybe reading these threads. Lose the provacative wording and work on a middle ground to truly reform an area you feel strongly about. Just a suggestion. Thanks Susankate and gcm. You two make some good points and I do enjoy hearing your perspective on things.
The correct term used in law to change a child's birth certificate at the time of adoption is "legal fiction" - look it up. It allows them to lie - legally.
There is also an adoptional issue that is added to the basic discrimination of sealing away the original birth certificate from the adult adoptee that is a stand alone issue on it's own. It is a change that happened post 9/11 for passports.
Depending on the timing of the adoption for a domestically adopted person. If the filing date (not the birth date) on the amended birth certificate is more than a year after birth - it is no longer acceptable proof of US citizenship. Then you must provide other proof which quite a few older adoptees don't have - things like adoption papers that are also sealed away from them. Affadavits from the doctor or nurses that witnessed your birth - the problem is they delivered the baby you were before you were adopted (think about that) so they can't help because they can't confirm the new you is the you that they delivered (or they have already passed away) and you have no clue who the nurses were because the hospital records don't match who you are post adoption. There is a whole list of things that most adult adoptees can't provide and the final kicker - an affavadit by a "blood" relative - yes they use the word "blood" - which is obviously a non-starter...
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Just wanted to correct the step parent adoption - the same process happens for the child who is adopted - suddenly the step parent is the genetic parent and the original is sealed awy.
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