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You can have any emotion you want about my behavior. You were telling me how I should parent, which is not at all the topic of the thread. And after me saying that is condescending to take my opinions on birth certificates and turn into a lecture on how I should parent (not to mention off topic), you did it yet againwith"You have have to be careful how you broach them with your children."
Had you maintained that you completely disagree with me regarding birth certificates, I probably wouldn't have responded at all because I think we all have a right to disagree. I stand by my statement that I was appalled at some of the posts. However, I should not have said "fellow adoptive parents," but instead should have prefaced that with "some of my fellow adoptive parents." It wasn't all the statements that bothered me, but some of them.
You have a different reaction. Ok. So why didn't you write about that instead of telling me I need to ensure the security of my child, not to talk about adoptee rights with her, and such? Why not just say you disagree with my statements?
I don't think anything I said was passive-agressive as that isn't my personality at all. I'm also not sure what insinuations you think I'm making. I thought I was pretty clear with my opinion and cannot find where you are seeing insinuations. If you will point them out to me, I'd be glad to clarify or clear it up. The written word can be misunderstood, and I get that.
As you say, it is hard to decipher words and the true intent. We are talking past one another quite a bit me thinks. I'm not going to do a post mortum of your original post. Read it again from a person who may not feel like you do. What I took out of it was, "I'm appalled that you don't agree with me if you don't see this as a terrible injustice, you obviously don't care about your children's rights." In the post I detected a high degree of anger. Perhaps I should have rephrased my post it if it was condescending. Again, that wasn't my purpose and if you took it as a reflection of your overall parenting, I do apologize.
But I am going to repeat myself on the one thing that seems to be our sticking point. I think that ALL of us can be be passionate about our causes but I think we need to temper it with the kids. Sometimes they just don't understand what mom and dad are so up in arms about. I will give you an example where we are not doing this too well in our household. My husband is waaaay to the right on politics whilst I remain more in the middle. He is incredibly outspoken about the state of our government and our current leaders. Fox News is his lifeline and don't get me started on Bill O'Reilly who I don't care for. I've had to tell him to cool it in front of my friends who are very liberal and I don't want to turn each outting into a political debate. It gets really tiresome. Sometimes he really starts at home and, to use my words, "harps" on things. Some of his remarks have gone over the top and I can see the kids starting to get really confused and a bit concerned. Why is dad so angry? Is something going on? Is something bad going to happen in our country? Is there going to be a war? As parents, we've had to tone down our remarks and we are far from perfect in this regard. This can apply to anything. If our cause is reforming adoption, I just think that you have to be really, really careful. It can be a really touchy issue and things very carefully explained to the child when they are old enough to process it.
If I'm off topic, please report it to Dark Moon. Or simply ignore me. That is the beauty of these boards. Sorry Dark, I'm trying to clarify my remarks and shall step back to let the topic resume on birth certificates and not parenting styles.
Linmora, around the age of five I was able to deduce on my own that my birth certificate was a lie. So how old do you think a child needs to be to have this convo?
"This paper is your amended birth certificate. Yes, it says we gave birth to you even though you know we didn't. Your original birth certificate, the one they made for you when you were born, has the names of your other parents on it, the ones that did give birth to you. When we adopted you the government decided to keep your original one & give you this one to use instead. How do you feel about your birth certificate being changed to say we gave birth to you? How does it feel not to know your other parents names?"
If I'm off topic, please report it to Dark Moon. Or simply ignore me. That is the beauty of these boards. Sorry Dark, I'm trying to clarify my remarks and shall step back to let the topic resume on birth certificates and not parenting styles.
Obviously, adoption can be a very emotional topic for all involved. I ask only that people make their comments about the topics under discussion and not direct them at other members -- and that threads stay on track. You can always start new threads (you can see that I've split some because multiple topics were being covered in single threads) if a comment sparks a new discussion. That's perfectly OK.
And, as Linmora stated, you can always put someone on your Ignore List if his/her comments are truly bothersome for you.
Linmora, around the age of five I was able to deduce on my own that my birth certificate was a lie. So how old do you think a child needs to be to have this convo?
"This paper is your amended birth certificate. Yes, it says we gave birth to you even though you know we didn't. Your original birth certificate, the one they made for you when you were born, has the names of your other parents on it, the ones that did give birth to you. When we adopted you the government decided to keep your original one & give you this one to use instead. How do you feel about your birth certificate being changed to say we gave birth to you? How does it feel not to know your other parents names?"
Did you see it as a "lie" or simply asked your adoptive parents who your real parents were? Was there a sense of outrage and anger? Or just confusion? I can certainly see a young child asking for the names of their biological parents. "Who is my real mommmy and daddy? What are their names? Where was I born?" How did your adoptive parents answer your questions? If you were fully able to form an opinion of injustice at the age of 5, I would imagine that you were a very smart little girl.
Each child is different. My son is very delayed and even at the age of 10, wouldn't understand the issues with the birth certificate. We just really started getting into this with my daugther at the age of 12 when she started having some huge behavioral issues with the onset of puberty. Frankly, she doesn't want to talk about adoption. Would I ever have a talk in the way your phrased it above? Heck no. I think that your explanation to a young child and is a bit harsh imo. If a young child asks, why not sugar coat it a bit more until they can process everything. Why ask a provacative question like "How do you feel about not knowing your parents names?" They can bring that up to you but why should you jump start that discussion?
If I had this specific converstation, it would be something like:
Me: "This paper is new certificate given to us by the state when we adopted you. It has our names on it as the your parents. Your first birth certificate, the one they made for you when you were born, has the names of your other parents on it, the ones that did give birth to you. When we adopted you the government decided to keep your original one & give you this one to use instead.
Child: "Mommy, can I see the first one?"
Me: Honey, right now they won't give us the first piece of paper. We are trying to get the laws changed so one day, you have the first piece of paper with the name of your birth parents. Right now we just have this piece of paper but we hope that changes with all of our hard work.
As to the original topic, I would be interested in hearing how people who are opposed to changing the way the current birth certificate system think certain things should be addressed. Like having access to one's genetic history or being able to get the information required to fly (as mentioned earlier in this thread).
Did you see it as a "lie" or simply asked your adoptive parents who your real parents were? Was there a sense of outrage and anger? Or just confusion? I can certainly see a young child asking for the names of their biological parents. "Who is my real mommmy and daddy? What are their names? Where was I born?" How did your adoptive parents answer your questions? If you were fully able to form an opinion of injustice at the age of 5, I would imagine that you were a very smart little girl.
I knew I was adopted & I knew that meant my parents did not give birth to me. I knew a birth certificate is supposed to tell you who gave birth to you. My birth certificate said my adoptive parents gave birth to me & I interpreted that as a lie. How else does a five year old interpret something making a claim that is not true?
Quote:
Would I ever have a talk in the way your phrased it above? Heck no. I think that your explanation to a young child and is a bit harsh imo. If a young child asks, why not sugar coat it a bit more until they can process everything.
How was it harsh in any way... Because it actually acknowledges the truth?
Again, I was already processing it on my own at the age of five without the help of my parents. Sugar-coating things & not helping me make sense of my amended birth certificate did not help me to process anything.
Quote:
Why ask a provacative question like "How do you feel about not knowing your parents names?" They can bring that up to you but why should you jump start that discussion?
Because adopted children need help learning how to process their feelings whether or not they bring it up to you first. It is a mistake to assume a child not bringing up adoption means they do not need help processing being adopted. Most kids don't want to discuss puberty or sex with their parents, but obviously that is important for them to discuss with them BEFORE the child is troubled by it.
Can't tell you how many things I internalized because my adoptive parents assumed I would bring things up to them if they bothered me. Nope. I assumed they didn't want to talk about it anymore because they stopped acknowledging it/bringing it up themselves. Plus I was afraid to hurt their feelings. The older I got, the more I thought I should "just be over it. It doesn't matter anyway."
Adopted children need continued reassurance that it is okay, at any age, to talk about these things & express whatever feelings come up. They also need help exploring their feelings, instead of suppressing them -- which is what I ended up doing.
Last edited by thethreefoldme; 10-25-2012 at 02:02 PM..
If I had this specific converstation, it would be something like:
Me: "This paper is new certificate given to us by the state when we adopted you. It has our names on it as the your parents. Your first birth certificate, the one they made for you when you were born, has the names of your other parents on it, the ones that did give birth to you. When we adopted you the government decided to keep your original one & give you this one to use instead.
Child: "Mommy, can I see the first one?"
Me: Honey, right now they won't give us the first piece of paper. We are trying to get the laws changed so one day, you have the first piece of paper with the name of your birth parents. Right now we just have this piece of paper but we hope that changes with all of our hard work.
Nowhere does this ask the all important question that threefoldme perfectly hit on in her response- "How does this make you feel?" or "What do you think about that?"
My oldest daughter is three, and I'm always careful to ask her how things make her feel, her thoughts on something, or what she thinks. Otherwise, it's a one way conversation where I'm never learning about her or offering her the opportunity to see she can express her thoughts and feelings to me.
I prefer threefoldme's answer for this reason. It gives the child a chance to process their feelings about the birth certificate and their adoption, which is the real reason for the coversation in the first place.
Nowhere does this ask the all important question that threefoldme perfectly hit on in her response- "How does this make you feel?" or "What do you think about that?"
Great point Tiffjoy. When I first discussed my adoption and the birth certificate issue with my non-adopted children (who are currently ages 9- and 12-years-old), I simply provided them with the facts. Papa and Grandmother (Or "your birth grandpeople" if that is your preferred terminology. LOL!) were listed on mom's first birth certificate because they gave birth to mom. After mom was adopted, the state government changed mom's birth certificate to list Grandma and Grandpa as the people who gave birth to mom. The first birth certificate with Papa and Grandmother listed on it was sealed away and mom is not allowed to have it. No opinion provided here. Just the facts.
That was what, three sentences? After providing this factual explanation, they asked some questions which I clarified with additional facts. Then I asked what they thought about it. And they told me. Their assessment was that changing my birth certificate to not include their Papa and Grandmother who gave birth to me was lying.
I should note that I reunited with my first families before having my children. My children have never known a life without both my adoptive and natural families in it. This helped with explaining the birth certificate issue because by the time we discussed it, they already understood that Papa and Grandmother made mom while Grandma and Grandpa raised mom. It's really not all that complicated for kids to understand. It wasn't for me at age five and it wasn't for my children.
Nowhere does this ask the all important question that threefoldme perfectly hit on in her response- "How does this make you feel?" or "What do you think about that?"
My oldest daughter is three, and I'm always careful to ask her how things make her feel, her thoughts on something, or what she thinks. Otherwise, it's a one way conversation where I'm never learning about her or offering her the opportunity to see she can express her thoughts and feelings to me.
I prefer threefoldme's answer for this reason. It gives the child a chance to process their feelings about the birth certificate and their adoption, which is the real reason for the coversation in the first place.
Shrugs. Guess we have a very different way of broaching this topic with our kids. I've always been open and let them ask questions. Usually followed up with, "You okay with this? Or how do you feel? On this matter though, I'm not going to ask a leading question based on my very strong feelings about an issue and threefoldme did have quite a leading statement in her blurb. I think it is a bit harsh the way it was phrased. That's my opinion though. You two have your own parenting styles and obviously want to drive the point home to your children. That is your right.
I will still give you my opinion for what....the 4th time? One must be careful in how one broaches or phrases things to children. You have to take traces of your anger and agendas out of the dicussions. Not so easily done but we all must try. It's a bit puzzling. I've had quite a few adoption related discussions with my kids. I think that one of these discussions was on the topic of birth certificates and the issue of lying never came up. They've had plenty of other questions though. Quite interesting.
I think that I've beaten this topic to death. Shall we agree to disagree on this?
Shrugs. Guess we have a very different way of broaching this topic with our kids. I've always been open and let them ask questions. Usually followed up with, "You okay with this? Or how do you feel? On this matter though, I'm not going to ask a leading question based on my very strong feelings about an issue and threefoldme did have quite a leading statement in her blurb. I think it is a bit harsh the way it was phrased. That's my opinion though. You two have your own parenting styles and obviously want to drive the point home to your children. That is your right.
I will still give you my opinion for what....the 4th time? One must be careful in how one broaches or phrases things to children. You have to take traces of your anger and agendas out of the dicussions. Not so easily done but we all must try.
I think that I've beaten this topic to death. Shall we agree to disagree on this?
And again, I'm good with my parenting, thanks. No advice requested or needed. And asking how someone feels isn't taking my "anger and agenda" out on my daughter. Especially when my agenda is for her to be able to feel however she wants.
Since you think the current system is ok, would you like to respond to my earlier question. What do you propse adoptees do for genetic history, to search for first parents, or to obtain identification for flying?
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