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I asked about how to find out information to connect relatives in my Ancestry results and a "search angel" named Nancy M. said she would help me, and she spent about 2 or 3 weeks and found all the information!
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Yours is what I'd expect before 2015, heck maybe even before then. This is 2020. There has been mobile technology for years with various "mobile" scanners that they can bring to the vault to digitally scan. These days all they need is a decent cell phone to take a photo of the record. It would be faster if they just sent everything electronically verses having to print those images or scans out.
I got my birth certificate last June from NYS- just 6 months ago, I mailed in the check around Jan 15th or whatever day it "opened" to do so.
Yes, cell phones and scanners work, but we are not party to how they do this or what their policies and privacy matetrs might be, dont forget that scanning and sending out archived birth certificates is in addition to their normal daily workload of issuing and mailing out NEW birth certificates, they are sitting around all day just scanning old records.
Also, the original birth certificate they send out is not the original, it's actually stamped on the bottom in all caps;
PRE-ADOPTION BIRTH CERTIFICATE
THIS IS NOT THE CURRENT
BIRTH CERTIFICATE ON FILE
They would need a paper copy to stamp that on with a rubber stamper
In 2016, there were 234,283 live births in New York State and every one of those required a new birth certificate be issued, completed and mailed. I think they also deal with death certificates and a number of other things and we dont know how many employees even work there, it could be 10, it could be 500, I suspect the lower number is what it is since I called and spoke to a lady there and she said she would have the folder on her desk, and the next day I called and she knew who I was, the issue, and said she had the folder on her desk ready to mail once I sent a replacement request.
It was crazy because I got my mail out of the PO box and specifically knew one envelope was from the NYS health dept in Albany, but when I rode my moped home and got there, I could not find that letter ANYWHERE! I walked up and back to the PO twice looking in the ditch and side of the road- nothing, and it was very windy, so I figured it was GONE and that's why I had to call the lady to explain, I had to fill out the form and get it notarized again and mail it in.
Months later I FOUND the stupid envelope where it fell behind a statue in the livingroom and had been laying unseen.
I asked about how to find out information to connect relatives in my Ancestry results and a "search angel" named Nancy M. said she would help me, and she spent about 2 or 3 weeks and found all the information!
Some of the DNA search angels are amazing. I have not done that yet, have connected people that had a good start and was able to tell a DNA cousin at 23 and me who his father was. I knew he was through one of my mothers mothers sisters because one of my known cousins was there plus he uploaded to my heritage where another cousin is there. I knew his mother was not her daughter because he didn't have the same maternal haplogroup as me. What's throwing me off is he also matches someone in my mothers fathers line. I told him to buy an ancestry DNA kit because I have better matches there. He bought it but has not sent it in. This was way before COVID so may even be a year now. I also told him to order his adoption info from NJ, I doubt he's done that because he hasn't contacted me to say I was right.
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Originally Posted by Sculptor
I got my birth certificate last June from NYS- just 6 months ago, I mailed in the check around Jan 15th or whatever day it "opened" to do so.
Yes, cell phones and scanners work, but we are not party to how they do this or what their policies and privacy matetrs might be, dont forget that scanning and sending out archived birth certificates is in addition to their normal daily workload of issuing and mailing out NEW birth certificates, they are sitting around all day just scanning old records.
Also, the original birth certificate they send out is not the original, it's actually stamped on the bottom in all caps;
PRE-ADOPTION BIRTH CERTIFICATE
THIS IS NOT THE CURRENT
BIRTH CERTIFICATE ON FILE
They would need a paper copy to stamp that on with a rubber stamper
Honestly, there may not be an actual birth certificate in anyone's file, it could be the application with parental info for one. The birth certificate paper costs money, I can't see them printing one for every file.
I think once you or someone born years ago who's info is not digitalized makes the request, the info is added to their computer records so that they do not have to go back to storage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sculptor
In 2016, there were 234,283 live births in New York State and every one of those required a new birth certificate be issued, completed and mailed. I think they also deal with death certificates and a number of other things and we dont know how many employees even work there, it could be 10, it could be 500, I suspect the lower number is what it is since I called and spoke to a lady there and she said she would have the folder on her desk, and the next day I called and she knew who I was, the issue, and said she had the folder on her desk ready to mail once I sent a replacement request.
Not everyone orders a birth certificate when they give birth. My grandson was about 4 years old when we went to order his from the county. My daughter didn't have the $25 plus she didn't need it for anything. Everything needed his social which I had because they were living with me, I had it in my file cabinet.
For births and deaths now, everything is digital, so once they have the paper work for the birth or death certificate and I'd also assume marriage licenses, it's just a matter of entering it into the computer. With adoptees, it's the sealed records in storage that take longer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sculptor
It was crazy because I got my mail out of the PO box and specifically knew one envelope was from the NYS health dept in Albany, but when I rode my moped home and got there, I could not find that letter ANYWHERE! I walked up and back to the PO twice looking in the ditch and side of the road- nothing, and it was very windy, so I figured it was GONE and that's why I had to call the lady to explain, I had to fill out the form and get it notarized again and mail it in.
Months later I FOUND the stupid envelope where it fell behind a statue in the livingroom and had been laying unseen.
I had one of the 1st mopeds made back in 1980. I used to love riding it. That was before there were helmet laws for them and bicycles. Back then there were lots on the road unlike today.
Be careful, a friend of ours was killed last year riding one at night. Some new driver hit him. It sounded like a horrible way to go. His friends were following him, he had seen the car coming at him, tried to dump the moped to get away but they hit him. His friends following him saw the whole thing. Thankfully he died when hit so he didn't suffer.
Good thing you originally saw the envelope when it came. It's happened to me where I've lost something but it ended up being in my car between the seat and the middle compartment. Too bad you didn't find it before you had to put the request through again.
I asked about how to find out information to connect relatives in my Ancestry results and a "search angel" named Nancy M. said she would help me, and she spent about 2 or 3 weeks and found all the information!
I got my birth certificate last June from NYS- just 6 months ago, I mailed in the check around Jan 15th or whatever day it "opened" to do so.
Yes, cell phones and scanners work, but we are not party to how they do this or what their policies and privacy matetrs might be, dont forget that scanning and sending out archived birth certificates is in addition to their normal daily workload of issuing and mailing out NEW birth certificates, they are sitting around all day just scanning old records.
Also, the original birth certificate they send out is not the original, it's actually stamped on the bottom in all caps;
PRE-ADOPTION BIRTH CERTIFICATE
THIS IS NOT THE CURRENT
BIRTH CERTIFICATE ON FILE
Been reading the NY adoptees group since posting. It looks like people that have used the vital check web site to get NYC birth certificates back in February were shipping back in August. See the post here
Been reading the NY adoptees group since posting. It looks like people that have used the vital check web site to get NYC birth certificates back in February were shipping back in August. See the post here
Yeah that was one of the groups I was participating on, great resources!
I had to get mine from the state since I was born on Long Island, I didnt use that vitalcheck I think because it wasnt ready for prime time and I had an adult legal name change which complicated things as to needing to copy additional documents showing that. I mailed my request in via priority mail and it arrived the day after they opened the program to accept requests. NY State seemed to have it's act together a lot more than NY City.
People probably don't know this, but... about a year before the OBC law was enacted someone told me that if I was born in either of two counties on Long Island I could get my final order of adoption from the Surrogates' court! Seems there was a loophole in the system, I was skeptical but since I was born in Mineola County and that was one of the two mentioned, I downloaded their request form and did everything needed, it asked the applicant to explain WHY they were making the request, so I asked people on the group what they thought- brilliant! so I wrote down to the effect that;
"I was told years ago that I was adopted, but I never had any documentation or paperwork of any kind proving this, and that both my parents were deceased and I had no other resource to verify or deny the claim"
I enclosed a death certificate for both of my adoptive parents to back up what I said,
I guess it was a good couple of months later I got a letter in the mail from the Surrogates Court, it was a copy of my original final adoption order, complete and UN-REDACTED! so it had my original name on it, the one on my OBC I got later.
So I looked this document over, it was dated 6 months after my birth date and showed my adoptive parents and their attorney were in the court along with me, and it had my original name and my new adopted name on it.
If I hadnt found my mom thru Ancestry, I probably wouldnt have ever found her any other way, since my surname was "Kelly" and like "Jones" and "Smith" it's as common as telephone poles, plus she had married and her name changed to SMITH! and she moved to California many years ago and still has "Smith" for her surname.
So the interesting things about this document are- how many OTHER documents like this are out there in state archives that we don't know about? I never knew a thing about this final order until someone mentioned it, I didn't even know it existed, but there must be MORE documents between birth and 6 months later maybe contacts by the court, attorneys or child welfare checking up.
The other interesting thing is, I wonder if my adoptive parents ever SAW this document, because if they had, they would have known what my original name was and my surname being Irish, they Were Italian and I am sure the Italian doctor who arranged the whole thing told my parents about this ITALIAN baby about to be born that would be available, knowing that an Italian father would certainly want an Italian son. The doctor also would have know the records would be sealed and he kept both familes apart, so it was easy to lie about that and know it would stay secret.
Growing up they insisted I was 100% Italian, they also claimed they knew nothing about my birth mother or any details, and I never found any documents around the house- they must have destroyed them very early. I was suspicious about what they said and built up a big terrible scenario in my head to explain the "why" they claimed they knew nothing. I imagined maybe the reason they said that was my mom was raped and that's why I was given up, or maybe she was in a mental hospital or something and I was taken away, I learned from mom that nothing like that happened and I know all the details now.
Imagine my surprise when the DNA said I was mostly Irish not Italian!
I suspect that since they insisted I was 100% Italian, they did not see the document with my name on it, because if they had, they would have known "Kelly" is NOT Italian.
Yeah that was one of the groups I was participating on, great resources!
I had to get mine from the state since I was born on Long Island, I didnt use that vitalcheck I think because it wasnt ready for prime time and I had an adult legal name change which complicated things as to needing to copy additional documents showing that. I mailed my request in via priority mail and it arrived the day after they opened the program to accept requests. NY State seemed to have it's act together a lot more than NY City.
People probably don't know this, but... about a year before the OBC law was enacted someone told me that if I was born in either of two counties on Long Island I could get my final order of adoption from the Surrogates' court! Seems there was a loophole in the system, I was skeptical but since I was born in Mineola County and that was one of the two mentioned, I downloaded their request form and did everything needed, it asked the applicant to explain WHY they were making the request, so I asked people on the group what they thought- brilliant! so I wrote down to the effect that;
"I was told years ago that I was adopted, but I never had any documentation or paperwork of any kind proving this, and that both my parents were deceased and I had no other resource to verify or deny the claim"
I enclosed a death certificate for both of my adoptive parents to back up what I said,
I guess it was a good couple of months later I got a letter in the mail from the Surrogates Court, it was a copy of my original final adoption order, complete and UN-REDACTED! so it had my original name on it, the one on my OBC I got later.
So I looked this document over, it was dated 6 months after my birth date and showed my adoptive parents and their attorney were in the court along with me, and it had my original name and my new adopted name on it.
If I hadnt found my mom thru Ancestry, I probably wouldnt have ever found her any other way, since my surname was "Kelly" and like "Jones" and "Smith" it's as common as telephone poles, plus she had married and her name changed to SMITH! and she moved to California many years ago and still has "Smith" for her surname.
So the interesting things about this document are- how many OTHER documents like this are out there in state archives that we don't know about? I never knew a thing about this final order until someone mentioned it, I didn't even know it existed, but there must be MORE documents between birth and 6 months later maybe contacts by the court, attorneys or child welfare checking up.
The other interesting thing is, I wonder if my adoptive parents ever SAW this document, because if they had, they would have known what my original name was and my surname being Irish, they Were Italian and I am sure the Italian doctor who arranged the whole thing told my parents about this ITALIAN baby about to be born that would be available, knowing that an Italian father would certainly want an Italian son. The doctor also would have know the records would be sealed and he kept both familes apart, so it was easy to lie about that and know it would stay secret.
Growing up they insisted I was 100% Italian, they also claimed they knew nothing about my birth mother or any details, and I never found any documents around the house- they must have destroyed them very early. I was suspicious about what they said and built up a big terrible scenario in my head to explain the "why" they claimed they knew nothing. I imagined maybe the reason they said that was my mom was raped and that's why I was given up, or maybe she was in a mental hospital or something and I was taken away, I learned from mom that nothing like that happened and I know all the details now.
Imagine my surprise when the DNA said I was mostly Irish not Italian!
I suspect that since they insisted I was 100% Italian, they did not see the document with my name on it, because if they had, they would have known "Kelly" is NOT Italian.
I'm not sure how many states/ counties do not take all of the documents and put them in the adoptees file. I've heard others do the same thing in other states. Florida is worst then NY, I wonder if adoptees there have tried it.
As for your adoptive parents, it sounds like they destroyed all of the adoption documents at some point. They knew your birth name if you were given one or that you were baby boy Kelly. My brother, adopted in NJ had all of his paper work that his adoptive parents saved. I learned that when we found him on adoption reunion because he had my mother's Hungarian 1st and last names in his bio even though they were spelled wrong.
My mother didn't have much. She had a picture of him in his crib, he was born in December, she kept him until after Valentine's day, she even had him Christened. She had changed her mind, Catholic Charities came knocking saying she signed him away and to hand him over. She barely spoke English, so she handed him to them. I'm sure she didn't know that she could legally keep him because they didn't have the court date yet. She had his hospital band and what looked like a rent receipt all of which I found when I was 30, about 1995. That's how I learned about him. Back then I registered with ISSR, then the net happened. Adoption reunion was the 1st site I joined in 1999/2000. I lost my information as they upgraded the site.
I don't know why they lied to you but that was very common. They probably wanted to make sure you didn't try to look for her, they probably did whatever they could so that she didn't look for you. If your mother is still alive, ask if she was given those court papers or not. It's possible she wasn't because it had your adoptive parents info on it.
Do you look Irish? What is your DNA ethnicity? Do you have any Italian from your father? Irish look totally different from Italians.
Back then, they didn't try to put the same ethnicity babies with adoptive parents. The adoptive parents were desperate for a "newborn" they would take whatever baby came up. My friend Cathy was forced to adopt her daughter Alexis when she was 17. Cathy is fairly tall, thin, blond with green eyes, the bio father is dark, brown curly hair with brown eyes. Alexis was born with brown curly hair and green eyes. Her adoptive parents were both short and heavy, the adoptive mother had blond hair the adoptive father I believe had light brown hair. Alexis stuck out like a sore thumb. They had a bio daughter when Alexis was 13 that looks exactly like them. If you google Aundria Bowman or Dennis Bowman MI you'll see Cathy's FB page for Alexis where she has a lot of pictures of all of them. Alexis had been missing since age 14 in 1989. Last November, Dennis was caught via genetic genealogy for a brutal rape and murder in VA which is where they adopted Alexis. He then fessed up that Alexis was buried in their back yard.
Alexis was born in 1974. Cathy's mother had set up the adoption. She told Catholic Charities that Cathy was drinking while pregnant which was a lie. Cathy was a minor, had never drank before. It was her ex husband who drank. When the Bowman's got Alexis, they thought they were getting a baby with fetal alcohol syndrome. They were actually paid by the government to take this "damaged" baby/toddler. They were given all sorts of info about Cathy and her ex that her mother told Catholic Charities.
Cathy found out she was missing around 2010 when VA sent her a letter for contact. Cathy thought Alexis was looking for her, they wanted her DNA to compare with remains but wouldn't tell her anything about Alexis except she was missing in MI. Cathy's husband googled, found her case online. Alexis was in the original Runaway Train video by Soul Asylum. She was recently in People magazine which also has the photos.
The other interesting thing is, I wonder if my adoptive parents ever SAW this document, because if they had, they would have known what my original name was and my surname being Irish, they Were Italian and I am sure the Italian doctor who arranged the whole thing told my parents about this ITALIAN baby about to be born that would be available, knowing that an Italian father would certainly want an Italian son. The doctor also would have know the records would be sealed and he kept both familes apart, so it was easy to lie about that and know it would stay secret.
That document shows that your adoptive parents had to appear in court to officially adopt you AND change your name. So they would have known your original name in order to change it, and I would think they kept a copy of such an important document proving that they were your legal parents. I was also adopted in Nassau (born in Manhattan) so applied for my Final Order of Adoption, and it had my birth name on it 3-4 times, and my new name at the end. It matched what my adoptive mother told me my birth name was before she passed away. So my parents definitely knew it. Although I knew from an early age that I was adopted, and was told what my adoptive parents knew about my biological parents' backgrounds from the adoption agency, my mom waited until I was almost 50 before mentioning my birth name. I was astonished that she knew that all those years but never told me. It hadn't occurred to me that they would have been able to know that. Like yours it was also a very common surname but it did help me find my birth mother.
That document shows that your adoptive parents had to appear in court to officially adopt you AND change your name. So they would have known your original name in order to change it, and I would think they kept a copy of such an important document proving that they were your legal parents. I was also adopted in Nassau (born in Manhattan) so applied for my Final Order of Adoption, and it had my birth name on it 3-4 times, and my new name at the end. It matched what my adoptive mother told me my birth name was before she passed away. So my parents definitely knew it. Although I knew from an early age that I was adopted, and was told what my adoptive parents knew about my biological parents' backgrounds from the adoption agency, my mom waited until I was almost 50 before mentioning my birth name. I was astonished that she knew that all those years but never told me. It hadn't occurred to me that they would have been able to know that. Like yours it was also a very common surname but it did help me find my birth mother.
I'm sorry that your adoptive mother waited until you were 50 to tell you your name. Did she say why she waited? Glad she eventually did.
Have you asked your bio mother if she was given a copy of the final adoption order? Usually the bio mother was not in court so I'm not sure if they were sent it. My mother didn't have one, but she didn't have much.
I'm sorry that your adoptive mother waited until you were 50 to tell you your name. Did she say why she waited? Glad she eventually did.
Have you asked your bio mother if she was given a copy of the final adoption order? Usually the bio mother was not in court so I'm not sure if they were sent it. My mother didn't have one, but she didn't have much.
It was her prerogative. A birth name gets pretty close to "identifying information" so she was probably not comfortable sharing it, although my parents were open about other non-identifying information they knew. Not all of it would turn out to be accurate.
No, my birth mother signed away all her rights in the hospital when she gave me up so she wouldn't have had any access to my final order or any further information about me.
It was her prerogative. A birth name gets pretty close to "identifying information" so she was probably not comfortable sharing it, although my parents were open about other non-identifying information they knew. Not all of it would turn out to be accurate.
No, my birth mother signed away all her rights in the hospital when she gave me up so she wouldn't have had any access to my final order or any further information about me.
Even though she signed her rights away at the hospital, if she changed her mind she could have shown up at that court date to say she changed her mind. Most bio mothers did not show up because some were forced to do it by their parents.
That's what I was saying about my mother the other day, had she spoken English and known her rights, when Catholic Charities showed up telling her to hand my brother over, she didn't know she didn't have to because she had not given him up in the adoption court.
It's the same now but each state is different with how long they give the bio mother to change their mind before that final adoption hearing.
Even though she signed her rights away at the hospital, if she changed her mind she could have shown up at that court date to say she changed her mind. Most bio mothers did not show up because some were forced to do it by their parents.
That's what I was saying about my mother the other day, had she spoken English and known her rights, when Catholic Charities showed up telling her to hand my brother over, she didn't know she didn't have to because she had not given him up in the adoption court.
It's the same now but each state is different with how long they give the bio mother to change their mind before that final adoption hearing.
My birth mother, who was 26 at the time, told me (and who knows if it was true) that when she surrendered me at the hospital she was told that a family was already waiting for me, and that she called the adoption agency the next day to ask to have me back but they told her she couldn't, because she had no means to support me. And that was that, she apparently didn't try anymore.
Actually I was first placed with a foster family and was adopted by my "forever" family at 2 months. My Final Order went through just over a year after I was born.
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