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We really need to divorce Health Care from Insurance Companies, like all the nations who have the highest life expediencies and lowest infant moralities do. Unfortunately their lobbyists have unlimited access to our so called representatives.
Hate to break the news to you - but - even if you get rid of insurance companies - health care costs will still be expensive. For example - the cheapest current PCIP plan run by the US government costs $376/month for a person over 55. And the plan comes with a $2k deductible and a 20% co-pay - up to an additional maximum of $7k a year out-of-pocket. I am currently in a state high risk pool that has nothing to do with insurance companies. My premium - at age 64 - is a touch less than $600/month with a $10k deductible and a 20% co-pay up to an additional max of $3k/year. Note that my premiums are set by state law at 125% of what an average person my age would pay for a substantially similar policy.
The only way to get around these higher premiums for older people is to do away with "age-rating" - and to charge a 34 year old - his 32 year old spouse - and their 8 year old kid the same as a 64 year old. I think there are a lot of young people who would object quite a bit to this. Robyn
One's point of view really is affected by where they are on the economic scale. If you are in a two-income household with solid jobs, live a in progressive but not excessively liberal state like Minnesota, have higher than the national average earnings as Minnesota does, then you don't want that boat rocked.
I can understand this.
Must say, from gg's description of Minnesota, if I were younger I'd be living there. WI also is a high-tax state, but with an ignorant governor and consequently government, and too much in the way of poverty in comparison to Minnesota because we are still paying the price of being a welfare magnet state in the 70's and 80's. The welfare mentality is now generationally entrenched and an economic drag on the SE part of the state for sure. Our narrow-minded, ignorant governor of barely average intelligence doesn't help.
ACA might help to equalize the disparities, but those now in a very comfortable position are threatened. That is very clear.
I know you like kind of "wonky" stuff (I do too). So take a look at some of the articles/interviews/etc. about/with Dr. Richard Cooper. Like this one:
I thought of him when you wrote about Wisconsin being a welfare magnet. Because he writes a lot about the effects of poverty on health care. Even when the poor people are insured through programs like Medicaid. And he often mentions Minnesota and Mayo - and compares what you'll find there as opposed to what you see in a place like inner city Detroit.
I really wouldn't put him into any pigeon hole. He dislikes the Obamacare approach (which touts the Mayo model - which he says would never in a million years work in poor inner cities) - but a lot of his work appears on Socialist websites. And - although I'm conservative - I don't read his work as being political - but a matter of common sense. He's one of the only health care writers I've read who acknowledges that the poor in the US tend to skew our health statistics to look worse than they really are for most people here. Poor people tend to use more health care resources (they tend to be less healthy - and not only because of a lack of access to health care - all you have to do to figure that out is visit the south - and see the huge number of poor people who are morbidly obese/diabetic/etc.). They also use health care resources less wisely/efficiently - and aren't as capable in terms of dealing with any health care system as middle or higher income people. In part because they don't/can't plan in advance* - for something as simple as a doctor's appointment (we have remedial courses in the inner city in the county next door to us - which deal with things like setting alarm clocks so you wake up on time to show up for a job ). They also have worse outcomes.
In any event - it makes for some interesting reading. Although I don't think it has much to do with uninsured people - because most of these people tend to be on Medicaid. Apart from the 2 groups I've mentioned already (illegals and those who are voluntarily uninsured) - a third major uninsured group is what Professor Uwe Reinhardt calls the "working stiffs" who earn little and/or are down on their luck. Of all the uninsured - this is the group I think most of us would want to help (at least that's the way I feel). At least in terms of coming up with a system that works for them. And if you've never read this:
Why is health care so expensive. Where I'm working for me and hubby they want almost 1200. a month. That makes it almost 14000.00 a year. How do you survive on the remainder for living expenses?
Wanting to find something cheaper? Is there a possibility out there.
Thanks
For now I would price "independent coverage" and ditch the group coverage. Group coverage has its advantages and protections built in by law. If you are elderly and or have pre-existing conditions you may not qualify for independent coverage, and what I mean by elderly I mean 45 or older.
For now I would price "independent coverage" and ditch the group coverage. Group coverage has its advantages and protections built in by law. If you are elderly and or have pre-existing conditions you may not qualify for independent coverage, and what I mean by elderly I mean 45 or older.
The OP is over 45 - 50+ IIRC. With a husband (same age or older) she is supporting. She has said she's a dual Canadian/US citizen (US citizen by virtue of marriage).
Had to laugh when you said elderly = 45 or over. I don't feel really old at age 64 - until I pay my health insurance . Twenty days until Medicare and counting. Robyn
For now I would price "independent coverage" and ditch the group coverage. Group coverage has its advantages and protections built in by law. If you are elderly and or have pre-existing conditions you may not qualify for independent coverage, and what I mean by elderly I mean 45 or older.
You can qualify for individual coverage from group coverage with pre-existing conditions under HIPAA if you have creditable coverage and fulfill all the other requirements
It is nonsense to suggest that Individual Insurance coverage does not have protection built in by law. There are federal and state regulations that govern these health insurance policy. Where did you get your contention of being elderly and age 45 as a restriction for coverage under health insurance? That is not correct. I like to see you to provide a link for your contention. Teach me and prove me wrong.
This is why I stated 46 million instead of of the 50 to 52 million that many sources are now quoted in saying are without healthcare.
Did you know that due to the Affordable Care Act's strict ID requirements it's now causing the illegal camp to be very frightened.
They are extremely concerned that due to these identification requirements that they will be outed as the illegals that they are?
Do you want to continue to fund these people?
Do you want to continue to see your health insurance premiums rise due to the uninsured not being able to pay their ER bill?
Do you want to lower your overall annual expenditures concerning your healthcare?
Of course you do just like I do.
I work for a company that employs approx. 1000 people.
My health insurance rates for just myself are going to be costing me over 1,500.00 more next year than this year due the insurance company raising my rates again.
Their reasoning was that more people are dropping coverage due to not being able to afford it thus causing the remaining participants to pay an ever higher portion in a ever decreasing pool of funding.
This isn't just myself but everyone in almost every sector of this economy.
I figure if they keep raising my insurance rates each year I will have another five years of coverage before I'm forced to drop it due to cost leaving me uninsured.
This can happen to you, it can happen to Golfgal just like it's happening to thousands of us every year.
The ACA doesn't go far enough but it's a start.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robyn55
Your "we" is a pretty diverse group. About 20% now are people who are not legally in the US. Another substantial % is people who can afford to buy insurance - but remain uninsured voluntarily. A lot of this second group consists - predictably - of younger and healthier people. There is absolutely nothing in the ACA that deals with these 2 groups of people (except for the pathetically small "tax" imposed on people who can afford to buy insurance but who remain uninsured voluntarily).
I would be ok with a system that imposed a tax on all people who are legally in this country at a rate of about perhaps 10% of gross income for those above the poverty level (most really poor people are probably already on Medicaid). But that wouldn't deal at all with the problem of the 20% illegals. And the voluntarily uninsured wouldn't like a system like that. Note that living in Florida - I am already paying a fair amount of taxes for the approximately 7% of the population that's illegal (whether it's for schools - emergency rooms - or whatever) - and I'm not inclined to pay more. Nor am I inclined to pay anything for someone who can afford to buy basic health insurance - but refuses to do so. So what would you do with these 2 groups?
Note that I don't see how my health care costs (or taxes) will go anywhere but up if I'm forced to pay for more people in the system without forcing these people to pay money into a system that provides insurance for them. Robyn
Then you live in the wrong country. That is not what the US is about.
I can help the country by supporting local clinics owned by doctors or even major companies that provide jobs, pay taxes, contribute to charities, support little league teams, etc. We shop locally as much as possible, we vote, we pay our taxes in one of the highest taxed states in the Union gladly because it gets us a great standard of living, including very reasonable health insurance and top notch medical care. Go to a national plan and the best of the best are no longer attracted to the system, research falls off and the quality of care goes down, period. How many medical advances have come out of England in the past 50 years besides thalidomide?
Then by your logic this country is about paying outlandish hyper inflated healthcare costs for everyone else including ones self then correct?
Let's pretend the ACA was struck down by SCOTUS.
Every year we add another 2 to 3 million people to the uninsured ranks, in ten years that would add another 20 million people on the low end to the ranks of the uninsured.
Those of us that currently are lucky enough to be employed and with health insurance would be forced to pay ever higher insurance rates to rectify the costs of the uninsured's emergency room costs due to no insurance.
Your right Golfgal that is the way of the U.S.A.
All the advances in medicine wont amount to a hill of beans of no one can afford to have proper healthcare to begin with.
We should have listened to President Eisenhower when he wanted a universal healthcare plan to be enacted back in the 1950's.
Now we pay the piper, now we pay through the nose.
The band plays as the great ship sinks right Golfgal?
This is why I stated 46 million instead of of the 50 to 52 million that many sources are now quoted in saying are without healthcare.
Did you know that due to the Affordable Care Act's strict ID requirements it's now causing the illegal camp to be very frightened.
They are extremely concerned that due to these identification requirements that they will be outed as the illegals that they are?
Do you want to continue to fund these people?
Do you want to continue to see your health insurance premiums rise due to the uninsured not being able to pay their ER bill?
Do you want to lower your overall annual expenditures concerning your healthcare?
Of course you do just like I do.
I work for a company that employs approx. 1000 people.
My health insurance rates for just myself are going to be costing me over 1,500.00 more next year than this year due the insurance company raising my rates again.
Their reasoning was that more people are dropping coverage due to not being able to afford it thus causing the remaining participants to pay an ever higher portion in a ever decreasing pool of funding.
This isn't just myself but everyone in almost every sector of this economy.
I figure if they keep raising my insurance rates each year I will have another five years of coverage before I'm forced to drop it due to cost leaving me uninsured.
This can happen to you, it can happen to Golfgal just like it's happening to thousands of us every year.
The ACA doesn't go far enough but it's a start.
Actually - the way things work in Florida is as follows. If you live in a county with a public hospital - you'll pay through the nose for the costs of indigent care in that hospital. For example - when my father moved here from Broward County about 6 years ago - approximately 8-9% of his property taxes were going to support indigent care in the Broward County hospital system. I don't think it was that much when we moved from Miami/Dade County 15 years ago - but it wasn't peanuts. We don't have a public hospital in our county. So we can spend more on things like education (and we're the #1 rated school system in Florida).
I don't care if illegals are frightened. And I don't care to fund them at all. And I'd kick all of them out of the country. IMO - the only people who make money off of illegals are people who are too cheap to hire workers at decent wages. Whether you're talking about garment workers in New York - fruit pickers in Georgia - or housekeepers and gardeners in California. I've employed people for a long time. Have never hired an illegal - ever (although I have hired legal immigrants). And never will - especially just to save a few bucks out of my own pocket that will be passed on to the taxpayers of this country. You want cheap labor - like a cheap gardener - don't hire an illegal - move to another country or mow your own lawn.
BTW - I'm not worried about my financial situation - although other people might be. But doing dumb things won't IMO get good results for average people in this country either. Robyn
Actually - the way things work in Florida is as follows. If you live in a county with a public hospital - you'll pay through the nose for the costs of indigent care in that hospital. For example - when my father moved here from Broward County about 6 years ago - approximately 8-9% of his property taxes were going to support indigent care in the Broward County hospital system. I don't think it was that much when we moved from Miami/Dade County 15 years ago - but it wasn't peanuts. We don't have a public hospital in our county. So we can spend more on things like education (and we're the #1 rated school system in Florida).
I don't care if illegals are frightened. And I don't care to fund them at all. And I'd kick all of them out of the country. IMO - the only people who make money off of illegals are people who are too cheap to hire workers at decent wages. Whether you're talking about garment workers in New York - fruit pickers in Georgia - or housekeepers and gardeners in California. I've employed people for a long time. Have never hired an illegal - ever (although I have hired legal immigrants). And never will - especially just to save a few bucks out of my own pocket that will be passed on to the taxpayers of this country. You want cheap labor - like a cheap gardener - don't hire an illegal - move to another country or mow your own lawn.
BTW - I'm not worried about my financial situation - although other people might be. But doing dumb things won't IMO get good results for average people in this country either. Robyn
Robyn,
I too believe in removing all illegal aliens from this country.
I also believe in militarizing the southern border and constructing a Berlin Wall type barrier that runs the entire length of of the southern border.
I am also a staunch supporter of my 2nd amendment right to bear arms with over 100 handguns in my collection.
I'm what you call a nationalist. Not a white nationalist, not a Nazi but someone that believes in taking care of our own first.
That means no funding wars overseas and no giving monies to other governments to assist in feeding their citizens when we have people starving in this country.
That means bringing manufacturing back from China by forcing trade tariffs.
Many people think by what I write about universal healthcare that I'm a liberal but they are wrong in the sense that I wish to give our hard earned monies away.
I'm a liberal in that I wish to take care of our own citizens and give them what their forefathers faught for and that's a fair shot in this country and in this case that means assisting them with basic healthcare.
It's often all about the money - and I don't mean profits - but more often socio-economic indicators. From that article:
Quote:
it can easily be calculated that if all Medicare enrollees cost as much per year as those with incomes above $25,000, Medicare would spend 34 percent less. It’s a huge difference. And one thing we know about geographic variation is that poverty is very geographic.
When I worked, it continually amazed me to observe at the building cafeteria, fat, obese, at-times physically impaired people, day in and day out, heading for and eating only the fried foods, while the thin, fit, healthy looking people went to the salad bar or, if they ate cooked food, had steamed vegetables, lean meats and no starch. I am still befuddled as to why any thinking person with obvious health problems would so obstinately and consistently insist on such unhealthy food choices when the effects of those unhealthy choices were out there for all the world to see in their obesity and disability. I worked with women who would gain at least one or two dress sizes a year, proudly displaying when walking back to their desks (for as long as they were able to walk, some ended up in a wheelchair) all the crap food they were eating year in and year out. I can only assume they WANTED to eventually become diabetic, in a wheel chair, needing a transplant of one sort or another, or even death. Every single woman I worked with who died before the age of 60, some in their 40's, - there were at least five of them - were obese - and proud of it.
I just don't get it. In this case, these people worked, yet still consciously undermined their health on a daily basis. This type of irresponsibility - whether under or over Medicare age - costs everyone.
Last edited by Ariadne22; 08-11-2012 at 06:38 PM..
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- and compares what you'll find there as opposed to what you see in a place like inner city Detroit.
). They also have worse outcomes.
. Twenty days until Medicare and counting. Robyn
