Westward Expansion

[Mr. Clutch]

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

Toll roads depend on toll revenue forecasts to determine how much concrete they can afford to pour. If the forecasts had modeled more traffic, there might have been more lanes.

Even with more lanes...look at I-45 in southern Montgomery County. There's what, 4-5 lanes in each direction? And there's discussion of widening it.

That's true, but come on, a two-lane freeway loop on the west side of the Houston area? Beltway 8 is four lanes on that side and it's been congested for years. Even the free part of 99 that was built before the rest of it was a mess within a few years of being built.

The entire thing is too small and as hbcu said, seemed to have been built that way just to do an expansion project 10-15 years later. HCTRA doesn't do nearly as good of a job with their tollways as NTTA does - they tend to at least build the pavement wider the first time on their roads, even if they only initially stripe it for 2 or 3 lanes, the capacity can be easily expanded later. It was mind-boggling to me that they chose to build the northeast part of 99 as a Super 2 road (essentially a freeway-standard two-lane highway). That area is already growing and is only going to accelerate in coming years.

[Dopo]

Originally Posted by Mr. Clutch

Even the free part of 99 that was built before the rest of it was a mess within a few years of being built.

The issue is not that there's not enough lanes on the free section of 99
The issue is that there's not many other options and therefore everybody gets on 99

[brock2010]

Originally Posted by Mr. Clutch

Like every other Houston freeway, should have been built wider in the first place. It's not like they didn't know the west side was going to continue to grow.

Yeah, you're right and hbcu you make a great point as well I noticed that TxDot will take forever with some projects stretching them to hell but others like I-69 and Grand Parkway move relatively quickly.

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by Mr. Clutch

That's true, but come on, a two-lane freeway loop on the west side of the Houston area? Beltway 8 is four lanes on that side and it's been congested for years. Even the free part of 99 that was built before the rest of it was a mess within a few years of being built.

The entire thing is too small and as hbcu said, seemed to have been built that way just to do an expansion project 10-15 years later. HCTRA doesn't do nearly as good of a job with their tollways as NTTA does - they tend to at least build the pavement wider the first time on their roads, even if they only initially stripe it for 2 or 3 lanes, the capacity can be easily expanded later. It was mind-boggling to me that they chose to build the northeast part of 99 as a Super 2 road (essentially a freeway-standard two-lane highway). That area is already growing and is only going to accelerate in coming years.

Look, in many ways your comment makes sense, but this is the reality of toll financing. And we have toll financing because the state and federal government refuse to increase the gas tax or implement other revenue mechanisms.

[TheyNotLikeUs]

Originally Posted by Mr. Clutch

That's true, but come on, a two-lane freeway loop on the west side of the Houston area? Beltway 8 is four lanes on that side and it's been congested for years. Even the free part of 99 that was built before the rest of it was a mess within a few years of being built.

The entire thing is too small and as hbcu said, seemed to have been built that way just to do an expansion project 10-15 years later. HCTRA doesn't do nearly as good of a job with their tollways as NTTA does - they tend to at least build the pavement wider the first time on their roads, even if they only initially stripe it for 2 or 3 lanes, the capacity can be easily expanded later. It was mind-boggling to me that they chose to build the northeast part of 99 as a Super 2 road (essentially a freeway-standard two-lane highway). That area is already growing and is only going to accelerate in coming years.

yeah this is very true. the super 2 road idea was a very bad move for the NE grand parkway. I drove that once and luckily entered right in front of a big rig with a line of 20 or more cars behind it. even the west side GP between I-10 and 290 was inadequately built almost as soon as it was constructed. it should have been 3 lanes each way with longer entrance ramps. you're right in DFW they prepare far better than Houston. I was on the 161 there not long ago and each overpass had enough concrete pour for easy restripping versus in Houston where they're going to have to build new concrete columns, etc. I wonder why North Texas has been able to do much better with road construction this century (wider freeways, new trenches, far more HOV to HOV connector ramps) versus Houston where it's excuses being made and friends getting paid.

[Mr. Clutch]

Originally Posted by TheyNotLikeUs

yeah this is very true. the super 2 road idea was a very bad move for the NE grand parkway. I drove that once and luckily entered right in front of a big rig with a line of 20 or more cars behind it. even the west side GP between I-10 and 290 was inadequately built almost as soon as it was constructed. it should have been 3 lanes each way with longer entrance ramps. you're right in DFW they prepare far better than Houston. I was on the 161 there not long ago and each overpass had enough concrete pour for easy restripping versus in Houston where they're going to have to build new concrete columns, etc. I wonder why North Texas has been able to do much better with road construction this century (wider freeways, new trenches, far more HOV to HOV connector ramps) versus Houston where it's excuses being made and friends getting paid.

I have no idea, but its beyond frustrating. Infrastructure planning really shouldn't be that hard, especially when you're literally just building a new road through farmland. It's not like you have ROW constraints or any of that.

I think, honestly, the biggest difference is just the spirit of regionalism in DFW vs. Houston. Yes, all of those towns that make up the metroplex bicker and fight among themselves for resources a lot, but by necessity there are a lot more regional entities up there because at the end of the day, they would not be where they are without working together. For example, NTTA serves the entire North Texas region, so they have an actual system largely developed by a single entity. That helps with economies of scale and contributes to building out a consistent network that has similar designs and standards.

Here we have:

HCTRA (Harris County - BW8, Hardy, Westpark)
FBCTRA (Fort Bend County - Westpark, Fort Bend Tollway)
BCTRA (Brazoria County - 288 Tollway)
GPTC (Grand Parkway)

They don't work together, and it shows.

Here, everything kind of revolves around the city of Houston and if the city is not particularly motivated to champion a project or plan, its going to languish. I don't think the city cares that much about 99 because at the end of the day, only small parts of it serve the city - its really a suburban bypass. Suburban interests seem to have a lot more power to get things built in DFW.

While that explains (at least in my mind), some of the dysfunction on a regional level, it doesn't explain the inadequacies of some of these designs on a project level. Its simply incomprehensible that someone in the 21st century could think a Super 2 regional route anywhere in the Houston area was even a reasonable idea, much less an actual good one. And given that HCTRA is sitting on $1 billion + of cash and GPTC is sitting on $500 million itself, it's certainly not a "lack of funding" issue.

The problem is in plain sight, but there's no will to actually do anything about it and do things better. As I said before, extremely frustrating.

[Dopo]

Originally Posted by Mr. Clutch

I don't think the city cares that much about 99 because at the end of the day, only small parts of it serve the city - its really a suburban bypass. Suburban interests seem to have a lot more power to get things built in DFW.

They care about 99
because they made sure to put all the business areas by 99 in Houston ETJ = tax dollars for the city of Houston

[ParaguaneroSwag]

“There will never be enough lanes”. But I do admit 4 lanes would be better than 2. But no more than 4 please