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cry_havoc - You are painting this with too broad of a brush. The Marshall program, that is being discussed here, is a graduate program attended by top students from around the country with degrees in chemistry and biology. The admission requirements are rigorous and admission is highly selective and limited to around twenty students per year according to the program web site. The program itself is housed in the Marshall University Forensic Science Center (MUFSC) which is a working lab and also provides training for crime laboratories throughout the U.S..
You paint forensic science as a worthless degree, but you need to look at the specifics of the degree programs themselves. You insinuate that graduates cannot get jobs, but as I understand it Marshall forensic science graduates are highly sought after and do not have issues finding jobs.
I agree the job prospects in a field like this can be limited (how many city and state crime labs are there anyway) so to me it makes sense that talented chemistry and biology majors attend a two year masters program like Marshall if forensic science is their chosen career. I would certainly hope that if I am ever wrongly accused of a crime that evidence is being analyzed by top professionals with a passion enough for their field to pursue an advance degree.
Possibly the most dubious aspect of the program at Marshall is their association with the State Police crime lab. You might not remember this, but that particular lab had an analyst who intentionally falsified test results resulting in improper convictions of many people charged with crimes, who were not guilty. Some served lengthy prison terms. It has been some years now, but the name Zinn comes to mind. The FBI has a far more prestigious and tamper proof lab.
Also trying to link the MU Forensic program to situations and incidents, these happened well before the MU program was in existence by the way, the WV State police had in the past is a leap even Evel Knievel couldn't make.
> Zain worked as a serologist for the West Virginia State Police from 1980 to 1989
a) The West Virginia State Police Forensic Laboratory is in South Charleston, WV, not at Marshall. Marshall houses the West Virginia's Combined DNA Index System (CODIS) laboratory facility.
b) The West Virginia Board of Trustees approved the foundation of the Marshall University Forensic Science Graduate Program and established the West Virginia Combined DNA Index System (CODIS) under the authority of the West Virginia State Police at Marshall in 1994.
CTMountaineer - there is nothing "dubious" about the Marshall University Forensic Science Center or the forensic science graduate program.
cry_havoc - you say "Nobody is going to care if you went to Marshall. Forensics is a profit center degree" which could not be further from the truth in regard to the Marshall University Forensic Science Center and forensic graduate program. This center provides training for laboratories across the country and the graduates of the Masters program are in high demand because of the rigorous education (including a mandatory internship) and the reputation of the program. Do you live near Huntington? Perhaps you should stop by Marshall and do some first hand research and report back.
> Zain worked as a serologist for the West Virginia State Police from 1980 to 1989
a) The West Virginia State Police Forensic Laboratory is in South Charleston, WV, not at Marshall. Marshall houses the West Virginia's Combined DNA Index System (CODIS) laboratory facility.
b) The West Virginia Board of Trustees approved the foundation of the Marshall University Forensic Science Graduate Program and established the West Virginia Combined DNA Index System (CODIS) under the authority of the West Virginia State Police at Marshall in 1994.
CTMountaineer - there is nothing "dubious" about the Marshall University Forensic Science Center or the forensic science graduate program.
cry_havoc - you say "Nobody is going to care if you went to Marshall. Forensics is a profit center degree" which could not be further from the truth in regard to the Marshall University Forensic Science Center and forensic graduate program. This center provides training for laboratories across the country and the graduates of the Masters program are in high demand because of the rigorous education (including a mandatory internship) and the reputation of the program. Do you live near Huntington? Perhaps you should stop by Marshall and do some first hand research and report back.
Im very familiar with the field. Nobody is going to care. What Marshall provides is a useless degree in a field most students will never be able to get a job in where they dont even need a degree. You know who else learn to work in laboratories? real science majors. Where does Marshall rank for Biology or chemistry? If you are bragging about how prestigious your forensic degree is from Marshall people are just going to roll their eyes. If you want an expensive internship than I am sure the Marshall program is great.
> You know who else learn to work in laboratories? real science majors.
cry_havoc - You continue to miss the point. The Marshall program is a Masters program and the students coming into this program are "real science majors" with chemistry and biology degrees from top universities all over the country.
and you go on to say:
> What Marshall provides is a useless degree in a field most students will never be able to get a
> job in where they dont even need a degree.
I agree it is a difficult field in which to get a job and most "real science majors" will never be able to get a job in this field. However "real science majors" with additional training and experience gained in the Marshall forensic science graduate program are all getting jobs. As quoted in recent articles about the Marshall forensic graduate program "The program has a 95 percent success rate at placing graduates of the program into the field".
And looking at the job postings and salaries of open positions on sites like the American Academy of Forensic Sciences:
even entry level jobs pay pretty well and many give preference or additional consideration to candidates with graduate degrees.
And if it is a "for profit center" why do they have such stringent entrance requirements and limit admittance to just 20 students (see the "Prospective Students" section on the Marsahll forensic graduate program web site)
So if 95% of the graduates of this program are getting jobs in a competitive field and in a difficult economy, what facts do you have to back up your claims of "useless degree" and "profit center degree"?
> You know who else learn to work in laboratories? real science majors.
cry_havoc - You continue to miss the point. The Marshall program is a Masters program and the students coming into this program are "real science majors" with chemistry and biology degrees from top universities all over the country.
and you go on to say:
> What Marshall provides is a useless degree in a field most students will never be able to get a
> job in where they dont even need a degree.
I agree it is a difficult field in which to get a job and most "real science majors" will never be able to get a job in this field. However "real science majors" with additional training and experience gained in the Marshall forensic science graduate program are all getting jobs. As quoted in recent articles about the Marshall forensic graduate program "The program has a 95 percent success rate at placing graduates of the program into the field".
And looking at the job postings and salaries of open positions on sites like the American Academy of Forensic Sciences:
even entry level jobs pay pretty well and many give preference or additional consideration to candidates with graduate degrees.
And if it is a "for profit center" why do they have such stringent entrance requirements and limit admittance to just 20 students (see the "Prospective Students" section on the Marsahll forensic graduate program web site)
So if 95% of the graduates of this program are getting jobs in a competitive field and in a difficult economy, what facts do you have to back up your claims of "useless degree" and "profit center degree"?
University of Phoenix also has very high placement for grads according to their own statistics.
You are using the useless accreditation system of a useless degree.
Like you said most people wont work in forensics. The whole field is useless, and is considered somewhat of a joke.
The real degree is called biology. Marhsall is not so great at that so it remarkets its poor biology program as forensics to get money from gullible students who think they will be on CSI.
Im sorry but it isnt a degree. It is a a few classes, a certification at best or a few weeks of training. A degree is just watering down a few classes in applied biology, and a little chemistry, into a degree.
Also trying to link the MU Forensic program to situations and incidents, these happened well before the MU program was in existence by the way, the WV State police had in the past is a leap even Evel Knievel couldn't make.
I am only saying their association with that particular lab is the only thing I would question as lending credibility. I forgot Zain's name, but definitely not the horrific results of his "work". I am not linking it to Marshall's program by any means, but the WVSP have a long way to go to establish credibility in their crime lab as far as I'm concerned. I have more than two decades in the criminal justice system and know some of the players involved at the time there. Amazingly, in spite of off the damage he did, he seemingly managed to skate. His antics affected the credibility of police work everywhere in the country.
Your post basically says it all... the WVSP hired him, and he flunked his chemistry courses. What does that tell you? I'm guessing nobody even bothered to read his transcript.
CT, the way you worded your post regarding the MU program and the WVSP/Fred Zain situation, it sounded like you were trying to link the two things together. Your wording inferred a connection.
University of Phoenix also has very high placement for grads according to their own statistics.
You are using the useless accreditation system of a useless degree.
Like you said most people wont work in forensics. The whole field is useless, and is considered somewhat of a joke.
The real degree is called biology. Marhsall is not so great at that so it remarkets its poor biology program as forensics to get money from gullible students who think they will be on CSI.
Im sorry but it isnt a degree. It is a a few classes, a certification at best or a few weeks of training. A degree is just watering down a few classes in applied biology, and a little chemistry, into a degree.
cry_havoc - Thank you for this post because it will serve as further proof to future readers of this forum that you are just expressing personal opinion and innuendo. When asked for facts to back up your assertions you respond with disparaging remarks about the Marshall biology program.
One more fact as it relates to this thread about the Marshall University Forensic Science Graduate Program - the program is affiliated with the Marshall University School of Medicine, not the biology program (and to be clear I am not disparaging the Marshall biology program since I don't know much about it except I believe it is world class bioinformatics)
Future web searchers reading this forum while researching Marshall University or a career in forensic science - Do your homework and dig deep to understand the details of any possible career choice and required education options. Arm your self with facts and not opinion and innuendo.
cry_havoc - Thank you for this post because it will serve as further proof to future readers of this forum that you are just expressing personal opinion and innuendo. When asked for facts to back up your assertions you respond with disparaging remarks about the Marshall biology program.
One more fact as it relates to this thread about the Marshall University Forensic Science Graduate Program - the program is affiliated with the Marshall University School of Medicine, not the biology program (and to be clear I am not disparaging the Marshall biology program since I don't know much about it except I believe it is world class bioinformatics)
Future web searchers reading this forum while researching Marshall University or a career in forensic science - Do your homework and dig deep to understand the details of any possible career choice and required education options. Arm your self with facts and not opinion and innuendo.
Sure, use this post people need to know it is a joke program. Forensic science is still just applied biology. My opinion of the program, which is already low, has been made even worse now that I know it is associated with Marshal's med school which has a terrible reputation. It isn't even ranked. That is known as a third tier school which is just a waste of money. WV does have a ranked med school at WVU though.
So kids take something useful like bioinformatics and not forensic science. I know you think it will be like CSI but in reality it will be you working in Walmart.
So yes arm yourself with facts, and the fact is Forensic sciencr is a bad major and the prestige is the same from any school. Ignore the opinion of Marshall grads who just eant to make their school look good. There are few jobs and they are hard to get, you agree to as much, and you don't even need a forensic degree to get them.
I'm not putting Marshal down. Go to Marshal and get a degree in a real major but stay away from forensics at any school.
Feel free to share this all you want.
Last edited by cry_havoc; 08-22-2013 at 07:58 AM..
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