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How did the students secure a job after graduating? Were they put in contact with recruiters, who took their own cut as well? Is this the program in NYC? You understand that 50-60K is below market rate even in Orlando and Phoenix, correct?
Fyi, asking the guy who runs the program why the students quit is *not* the same as asking the students themselves why they quit. This seems to be an immutable truth of business, as I have experienced
This was in the Midwest. $50-60k in this particular market was considered a very competitive starting salary for an entry-level role with no prior work experience. This same individual/firm ran a placement agency under the same roof so they were able to place students in open roles in the area (or in nearby states with per diem).
Keep in mind, the target pool of applicants were unemployed college graduates who were currently earning no income and were faced with prospect of either returning to school to gain marketable skills or take an 'undesirable' position earning minimum wage, etc.
Again, I'm not saying that this is the norm, but I did find it interesting and this particular scenario has mostly aligned with my own experiences working in the industry.
Keep in mind, the target pool of applicants were unemployed college graduates who were currently earning no income and were faced with prospect of either returning to school to gain marketable skills or take an 'undesirable' position earning minimum wage, etc.
Those would be three equally bad options, each crushingly exploitative in their own way. I'm glad the Americans saw this amazing "deal" for what it was.
Those would be three equally bad options, each crushingly exploitative in their own way. I'm glad the Americans saw this amazing "deal" for what it was.
Not sure I'd agree. If I was an unemployed college grad with 0 marketable skills and someone offered me the chance to earn 50-60k a year (potentially more) provided I agreed to study hard for a few months to learn programming and pay back a few thousand only if I secured the job, I'd probably jump at the chance.
Unfortunately, no one offered me that opportunity. Instead, I taught myself the concepts and tried, tried at interviews until I got my first Dev job. From there on it was a lot of mistakes and hard work to work up the ladder, but it was worth it. I think having that support in the beginning to learn the concepts needed to get that first job rather than struggling alone would have been great. Unfortunately, many people who were given the opportunity quickly balked when they learned that there's no such thing as free money and getting marketable skills in IT requires a rigorous amount of study and applying difficult concepts. 'It's too hard' might be an acceptable excuse for some people, but employers will see it as a red flag. I'm not an exceptionally intelligent person, but I did learn early on that most of us can master very difficult concepts; however we need to treat the process as you would a full-time job or a full-time degree program - it takes a lot of dedication, trial and error.
Personally, if I have to hire someone on a strict project deadline who is here on a visa and has a good track record of working hard and willingness to learn vs a US hire who is going to balk at the first obstacle or challenge...well, the choice is simple.
In most software shops newbies work under the direction of someone with a higher level of skill. You give them the dull jobs requiring little skill but time consuming. Then you watch what they do, teach them the better ways and start letting them get at the harder pieces. As they develop you give them bigger scope.
New hires, even experienced ones, should be carefully introduced. Glowing resumes and real skills are not the same thing. One can be a member of a great time that did something wonderful but it turns out the particular individual was in charge of tracking packages and getting coffee.
Personally, if I have to hire someone on a strict project deadline who is here on a visa and has a good track record of working hard and willingness to learn vs a US hire who is going to balk at the first obstacle or challenge...well, the choice is simple.
It's a simple choice only because a person who left the program would by definition not have acquired the Jr-level IT skills the job required, assuming you're hiring for an IT project. I am at a loss to extrapolate anything else from this particular example.
It's a simple choice only because a person who left the program would by definition not have acquired the Jr-level IT skills the job required, assuming you're hiring for an IT project. I am at a loss to extrapolate anything else from this particular example.
I think you're convoluting my two examples. In the hiring scenario I'm referring to hiring someone on a visa vs a lesser-motivated individual who is, presumably, a citizen. As to the training scenario mentioned earlier, I'm arguing that it's still a no-brainer for an unemployed grad, unless they view themselves as so talented or special that the right job is going to come find them, regardless of skills. For the rest of us, we have to get out there and acquire marketable skills. If you didn't graduate with them then you need to acquire them somehow. Unfortunately for some the process of acquiring those skills is considered 'too hard' and so they drop out even in a no-loss scenario where sticking with the program would have benefitted them in the long-run.
It's the old trade-off of short-term comfort for long-term gain. I think a lot of people would rather have the mindless desk job handed to them than actually work hard for something that asks more of you in terms of learning.
Well, it makes sense that an applicant (visa or otherwise) who is certain to "balk at the first obstacle or challenge" would find that to be a serious strike against him or her. I personally haven't any idea how to expose such people, whether foreign or native.
As for your other example, I still believe there must be a "catch" and I am hardly a skeptic about these things. It's unlikely I'm the only person who thinks that, else that particular model - the way it's been described - would be much more pervasive.
Well, it makes sense that an applicant (visa or otherwise) who is certain to "balk at the first obstacle or challenge" would find that to be a serious strike against him or her. I personally haven't any idea how to expose such people, whether foreign or native.
As for your other example, I still believe there must be a "catch" and I am hardly a skeptic about these things. It's unlikely I'm the only person who thinks that, else that particular model - the way it's been described - would be much more pervasive.
When it comes to programming, it's hard to catch the problem in advance, unfortunately. Anyone can memorize enough information to pass a basic interview or have enough skills to master the simplest concepts. However, if the project or job requires further study, work or analysis and the employee is unwilling to make the needed effort to improve their skills then that is a problem. Unfortunately, in certain industries, you do find employees who are very 'comfortable' with a limited set of repetitive tasks and will indeed 'balk' at being asked to do something new or challenging. In that scenario, my only point was that I would have no problems finding someone else more qualified, even if the person was on a visa and the existing employee was a citizen.
With the second example, no catch unless you consider learning complex concepts to be a catch - this may have been the case for some people who thought it would be easy to 'coast' through and get a job with little to no effort. I had a friend like this in college who took Comp Sci as a major, he dropped out two weeks into the first programming class, citing the coursework as 'too hard.' This sort of thing happens a lot, people tend to drop like flies if you ask them to put in a truly rigorous amount of learning/study to master something difficult. Plus, with coding, there's a circular element of trying and failing - it takes a lot of repeat frustration before something works as expected, so this doesn't suit people whose personalities expect instant gratification or success on the first try.
Yeah, enterprenours should spend thousands of dollars in training with no guarantee the people they get will acquire the skills they need before hiring someone they actually want. Brilliant thinking there.
Also, yeah, software engineering is just like plumbing or woodwork, that's why it attracts people with similar skills, right?
This response is borderline trolling.
I know a roofer who just switched to programming. I know a couple of art majors who made the switch too. It is not rocket science.
You also obviously have no idea how apprenticeships work. It is a five year process that vets people, and workers can be laid off if they aren't good. Quality people would join if it was an apprenticeship for a quality career.
I know a roofer who just switched to programming. I know a couple of art majors who made the switch too. It is not rocket science.
You also obviously have no idea how apprenticeships work. It is a five year process that vets people, and workers can be laid off if they aren't good. Quality people would join if it was an apprenticeship for a quality career.
Yeah I can see that working for art majors, people who went through college, do constant creative and abstract thinking. The apprenticeships are a good idea, they just shouldn't be forced upon companies, especially when they need to compete TODAY, not in 5 years.
Addressing the fraud problem should be the priority. Cap the number of H1s a company can apply to, give the visas out by salary from high to low (make the companies put their money where their mouth is, and actually bring in the best and brightest).
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