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Well, the topic is, people feeling a connection with another county, when they should be American. No more hyphenated Americans. No Mexican-American, no Asian-America. Just Americans!
The horrors of multiculturalism. No more ethnicities or ethnic pride.
Its been an ongoing topic, and this thread on dual citizenship is just another part of that discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amc760
Sounds like youre having quite a struggle, my friend.
But back on topic, how do you handle your Mexican heritage and your U.S. citizenship? Did you have to completely deny your Mexican heritage to make you a good U.S. citizen?
So what specifically am I denying, you didn't get around to answering that...
So what specifically am I denying, you didn't get around to answering that...
Yeah, I remember posting that all of 3 minutes ago. Its not my problem if you take it too literally and have to rely on that to make you feel like youre making a point.
Nevermind, Guypinestra, you're too clever for me.
P.S. "did you?" means I'm asking, not suggesting that your are. Don't worry, I'm sure youre comprehension will improve.
Macmeal, out of curiosity, if you don't mind giving this information of course, but of what ethnic lineage are you yourself?
I'm curious what your ethnic background is, to give me some kind of understanding on why you fear multiculturalism so much.
I know so many people who are so proud of their culture, yet don't see themselves being any less American. Mexican-Americans, Chinese-Americans, Italian-Americans, African-Americans, etc etc etc.
For the sake of this discussion, it doesn't matter. My race is Caucasian. My nationality is American. As far as 'ethnic pride' goes, I very seldom think of it...because to me it's a completely irrelevant concept. Those who proclaim ethnic pride for the great things "their people" have done (or continue to do), if they were intellectually honest, should spend an equal amount of time proclaiming their "ethnic shame", for all the BAD things their people have done.
I don't see it that way. I can no more take credit for what others have done than I can take the blame for what they've done. I'm not a sports fan, and I'm REALLY not even big on patriotism. I simply 'root' for the US because I think it's the noblest country yet 'invented'. I resent its being criticized by those who have so many skeletons in their OWN closets...The "Pot calling the Kettle", etc etc.,
Sorry, but I'm not a believer in ethnic pride. It's one-sided and ultimately dishonest. The Chinese MAY have discovered gunpowder....but if you weren't there to help, you don't get the credit, whether you're Chinese or not.
I enjoy MOST ethnic celebrations. Obviously mostly not out of 'pride', but because they're fun.
For the sake of this discussion, it doesn't matter. My race is Caucasian. My nationality is American. As far as 'ethnic pride' goes, I very seldom think of it...because to me it's a completely irrelevant concept. Those who proclaim ethnic pride for the great things "their people" have done (or continue to do), if they were intellectually honest, should spend an equal amount of time proclaiming their "ethnic shame", for all the BAD things their people have done.
I don't see it that way. I can no more take credit for what others have done than I can take the blame for what they've done. I'm not a sports fan, and I'm REALLY not even big on patriotism. I simply 'root' for the US because I think it's the noblest country yet 'invented'. I resent its being criticized by those who have so many skeletons in their OWN closets...The "Pot calling the Kettle", etc etc.,
Sorry, but I'm not a believer in ethnic pride. It's one-sided and ultimately dishonest. The Chinese MAY have discovered gunpowder....but if you weren't there to help, you don't get the credit, whether you're Chinese or not.
I enjoy MOST ethnic celebrations. Obviously mostly not out of 'pride', but because they're fun.
I don't think its so much taking credit for anything, but just having customs you were raised with.
I enjoy Mexican culture. I love the food, I love the music(sometimes), I like many of our customs. I think the Mexican culture is beautiful, and I'm proud of what I am.
When people have to say the accomplishments of their respective group, I think its when they are defensive, and thier ethnic groups is somehow judged or put to the test.
I guess what I'm asking of you is, were you not raised with any specific culture other than American?
Has your family been here so long that you don't really care where what youre roots are? Do you have no other culture besides American to relate to?
In the end, I don't think its about "taking credit". Its the same reason you like going to ethnic celebration. You appreciate and enjoy it.
Yeah, I remember posting that all of 3 minutes ago. Its not my problem if you take it too literally and have to rely on that to make you feel like youre making a point.
Nevermind, Guypinestra, you're too clever for me.
P.S. "did you?" means I'm asking, not suggesting that your are. Don't worry, I'm sure youre comprehension will improve.
You're the one who suggested that I was 'denying my heritage'. I was just trying to find out why you thought I had.
I guess what I'm asking of you is, were you not raised with any specific culture other than American?
Has your family been here so long that you don't really care where what youre roots are? Do you have no other culture besides American to relate to?
.
I was raised with 'ethnic cooking', yes. All cooking is ethnic. Some of the older people in my family had actually immigrated here, and still knew their native language(s)..So what? If the countries where my ancestors originated were NICE places, they'd never have left. That wasn't the case. My ancestors came here, because life where they left from was hell. So that's something to be 'proud' of? Guess I just don't see it.
Take Mexico for example. It's a tough place, an unfair place, and ten percent of its population has now left the country, they're so 'fed up' with life there. So what's the 'pride'? Because Mexicans are a 'proud race' who 'stick up for each other?' Obviously they don't...or they wouldn't have to leave home.
Personally, I'm proud of being HERE, not that I'm part of some other group that 'screwed up'. Why would I be proud of that? I had nothing to do with it, anyway.
To me, 'pride' entails taking pleasure in having done something well. I can certainly understand pride in a job well done....pride in a beautiful wife, well-behaved children, a well-kept home. I can certainly understand pride in having attained a college degree, or a job promotion, or in a piece of artwork. But I simply can not understand pride in one's ethnicity, any more than I can understand shame in one's ethnicity. You weren't 'there'...you had no part in making the group what it was...or wasn't.
I think if I was a Mexican-American, I'd want to go easy on the ethnic pride. Maybe there are a lot of things happening in the Mexican culture lately that aren't particularly things to be proud of. I think I'd concentrate on being proud of MYSELF, not some 'group'. If I DID feel like a little group pride, now and then, I think I'd try to think of ways to be proud of America, where I lived, and where I was supposedly a part of the 'system', rather than Mexico, where I DON'T live, and the place from which my ancestors were 'pushed'. In fact, these aren't only MY ideas...these are ideas I've learned from decades of living among Mexican-Americans, NONE of whom would ever want to live in Mexico. By and large, these folks were a pretty patriotic group of Americans. Guess it must have been that old-fashioned assimilation at work.
Don't want to sound disrespectful here, but I'll hold you to the same standard I'd hold anyone else to, including myself: If Mexico is THAT great, then why are you here? And if Mexican culture isn't responsible for the problems in Mexico, who IS? The sorry conditions in Mexican society are largely a function of Mexican culture. For YOU, personally, that should be the source of neither embarrassment, NOR pride....because you aren't THERE, you're HERE.
It really isn't about race at all, or even ethnicity, and I suspect you know that. There's nothing quite so tedious as having a bunch of people in your midst endlessly reminiscing about how wonderful it was "back home", and how poorly life HERE compares. It holds true across ALL ethnic lines. People here in California get VERY tired of hearing people from the Midwest, or the East Coast, talking about how much they miss the place they came from...the 'seasons', the snow, the culture, everything back home was 'better'....well for crying out loud, then, GO HOME !....that isn't being 'mean' or rude, it's just a normal reaction to those with bad manners.
Nothing here against Mexican cuisine, art, music, family bonds, etc etc. But the 'pride' stuff does get a little tiresome. Pride, in essence, is saying "mine's better than yours"...and that message gets REAL old, REAL fast. It's OK to take pride in the country you LIVE in, because you are a part of it, and have a role in it. But an ethnic group? What's your 'role' in that?
Once again, this is a fascinating subject, and I'd truly LOVE to have a serious discussion about it...honestly. But I'll take "ethnic pride" seriously, as a legitimate topic of conversation, when I also hear "ethnic shame" being discussed as well. Until then, it's not an honest topic, it's simply 'fluff'. So you're proud of your ethnicity?....wonderful !...compared to what?
I was raised with 'ethnic cooking', yes. All cooking is ethnic. Some of the older people in my family had actually immigrated here, and still knew their native language(s)..So what? If the countries where my ancestors originated were NICE places, they'd never have left. That wasn't the case. My ancestors came here, because life where they left from was hell. So that's something to be 'proud' of? Guess I just don't see it.
Take Mexico for example. It's a tough place, an unfair place, and ten percent of its population has now left the country, they're so 'fed up' with life there. So what's the 'pride'? Because Mexicans are a 'proud race' who 'stick up for each other?' Obviously they don't...or they wouldn't have to leave home.
Personally, I'm proud of being HERE, not that I'm part of some other group that 'screwed up'. Why would I be proud of that? I had nothing to do with it, anyway.
To me, 'pride' entails taking pleasure in having done something well. I can certainly understand pride in a job well done....pride in a beautiful wife, well-behaved children, a well-kept home. I can certainly understand pride in having attained a college degree, or a job promotion, or in a piece of artwork. But I simply can not understand pride in one's ethnicity, any more than I can understand shame in one's ethnicity. You weren't 'there'...you had no part in making the group what it was...or wasn't.
I think if I was a Mexican-American, I'd want to go easy on the ethnic pride. Maybe there are a lot of things happening in the Mexican culture lately that aren't particularly things to be proud of. I think I'd concentrate on being proud of MYSELF, not some 'group'. If I DID feel like a little group pride, now and then, I think I'd try to think of ways to be proud of America, where I lived, and where I was supposedly a part of the 'system', rather than Mexico, where I DON'T live, and the place from which my ancestors were 'pushed'. In fact, these aren't only MY ideas...these are ideas I've learned from decades of living among Mexican-Americans, NONE of whom would ever want to live in Mexico. By and large, these folks were a pretty patriotic group of Americans. Guess it must have been that old-fashioned assimilation at work.
Don't want to sound disrespectful here, but I'll hold you to the same standard I'd hold anyone else to, including myself: If Mexico is THAT great, then why are you here? And if Mexican culture isn't responsible for the problems in Mexico, who IS? The sorry conditions in Mexican society are largely a function of Mexican culture. For YOU, personally, that should be the source of neither embarrassment, NOR pride....because you aren't THERE, you're HERE.
It really isn't about race at all, or even ethnicity, and I suspect you know that. There's nothing quite so tedious as having a bunch of people in your midst endlessly reminiscing about how wonderful it was "back home", and how poorly life HERE compares. It holds true across ALL ethnic lines. People here in California get VERY tired of hearing people from the Midwest, or the East Coast, talking about how much they miss the place they came from...the 'seasons', the snow, the culture, everything back home was 'better'....well for crying out loud, then, GO HOME !....that isn't being 'mean' or rude, it's just a normal reaction to those with bad manners.
Nothing here against Mexican cuisine, art, music, family bonds, etc etc. But the 'pride' stuff does get a little tiresome. Pride, in essence, is saying "mine's better than yours"...and that message gets REAL old, REAL fast. It's OK to take pride in the country you LIVE in, because you are a part of it, and have a role in it. But an ethnic group? What's your 'role' in that?
Once again, this is a fascinating subject, and I'd truly LOVE to have a serious discussion about it...honestly. But I'll take "ethnic pride" seriously, as a legitimate topic of conversation, when I also hear "ethnic shame" being discussed as well. Until then, it's not an honest topic, it's simply 'fluff'. So you're proud of your ethnicity?....wonderful !...compared to what?
People all over this country leave their small towns for big cities. Why?
Because big cities have more resources. More jobs that pay better, a better standard of living for what they want.
But when people leave the small town or the big city, does that mean they have to deny where they are from? Theyre a resident of the big city, but theyre still a Springfieldian or a Mayberryan or whatever at heart.
No offense intended, but you seem to have a very jaded attitude towards ethnicity. You find it offensive, and in your face. Like its a competition.
I love my culture, but I respect lots of others too. I like learning about different ones. I was born into Mexican-American culture, but I'm always willing to learn more about Mexicans, Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Germans, British, Arabs, Japanese, whatever.
Its anything but a competition, its just an identity.
Americans like to call themselves a lot of things besides their ethnicity. New Yorkers, Californians, Texans, Cowboys, punks, anti-illegal, patriot, skater, etc etc etc.
In the end ethnicity is just another hat to wear. We're anything but a homogeous society, and I would not have it any other way.
And some people are scared of that. Some people want people to follow their ethnic values. Some people are scared of other ethnic customs, or ideals. And thats when problems start. When a certain group wants all othe groups to be more like them. Why fight it when its going to happen anyways?
And that's why you see the biggest clashes over this immigration debate happen in towns that were not used to Mexicans being around.
And that's why you see the biggest clashes over this immigration debate happen in towns that were not used to Mexicans being around.
Places like California, Arizona and Texas, right?
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