From Cali to St. George (Salt Lake City, Provo: apartments, renting, crime)

[motormaker]

Originally Posted by Blondie-Rabbit

yep And the sisters finally sold the Driftwood. change has happened in and around Springdale. They even have a mircobrewery.

Yes, the town has certainly changed. Some good, some not so good.

[The Casselli's]

Blondie,CravenClan, Irishmom and purplegrapes:

FIRST OF ALL THERE IS SO MUCH CONFUSION AND MISUNDERSTANDING AS TO WHAT I HAVE STATED. ESPEICALLY, BLONDIE...I DON'T KNOW YOU AND YOU DO NOT KNOW ME. PERIOD. THIS IS A FREE FORUM TO EXPRESS WHAT EACH AND EVERYONE OF US HAVE EXPERIENCED. FIRST OF ALL I AM A PROFESSIONAL FOR OVER 20 YEARS IN THE LEGAL FIELD IN THE WORKERS COMPENSATION AREA. I AM NOT MORMON. I AM CHRISTIAN. I AM NOT WHITE. I MOVED HERE FROM CALIFORNIA 3 YEARS AGO (ONLY) AND AT THAT TIME MY DAUGHTER WAS IN FINE ARTS HIGH SCHOOL IN PASADENA. WHEN SHE CAME HERE TO ST. GEORGE, SHE WAS SEEKING TO CONTINUE HERE FINE ARTS TALENT AND FOUND THAT DIXIE HIGH SCHOOL, SNOW CANYON HIGH, PINEVIEW HIGH AND EVEN TUACHAN FINE ARTS SCHOOL WAS NOT AS ADVANCED AS SHE WAS IN THE VIOLIN. SHE WAS ALSO A NATIONAL CHAMP DEBATER AND NATIONALS IN SPEECH TOURNAMENTS. IN EVERY SINGLE HIGH SCHOOL SHE AND I WENT TO INTERVIEW WITH IN THE YEAR 2004, NONE OF THE SCHOOLS HAD WHAT SHE WORKED SO HARD FOR TO BECOME AT SUCH A YOUNG AGE. ALTHOUGH, SHE WAS ONLY 16 YEARS OF AGE HER GPA WAS ABOVE 4.0 AND WAS TAKING COLLEGE COURSES AT HER HIGH SCHOOL IN PASADENA, CALIFORNIA AND WAS PERFORMING FOR THE PHILHARMONIC ORCHESTRA AND WAS ASKED TO PERFORM IN VIENNA AS A SOLOIST. WHEN SHE REALIZED THAT SCHOOLS HERE IN ST. GEORGE DID NOT HAVE ANYTHING CLOSE TO WHAT SHE WAS EXPOSED TO AND HAD NOTHING TO LOOK FORWARD TO IN HER TALENTS, SHE COULD NOT BARE LIVING HERE ANY LONGER. ACTUALLY, SHE WAS EXTREMELY ADVANCE TO STAY IN THE HIGH SCHOOL WE HAD TO REGISTER HER IN. SHE WAS THERE ONLY 4 MONTHS AND WITHIN FOUR MONTHS SHE WAS CONFRONTED WITH ALL SORTS OF PILLS THAT I NEVER HEARD OF TILL I MOVED HERE. THESE STUDENTS WERE GETTING MEDICATION FROM THEIR PARENTS MEDICINE DRAWER AND SELLING THEM AROUND SCHOOL. THERE WAS PERCOCET, LORITAB,OXYCOTIN, UPPERS AND DOWNERS, VICODIN, AND SO MUCH MORE. I WAS PERSONALLY INVOLVED WITH THE UNDERCOVER SCHOOL OFFICERS TO HELP CATCH THESE KIDS. MY DAUGHTER WAS TOO AFRAID TO POINT THEM OUT. THIS HAPPENED THE 2ND WEEK OF SCHOOL AND WENT ON FOR THE LAST 4 MONTHS WHILE SHE WAS ATTENDING SNOW CANYON HIGHSCHOOL. I HAVE NO IDEA HOW THINGS ARE NOW AT SNOW CANYON HIGH. MY DAUGHTER LEFT THE SAME YEAR WE MOVED HERE. I HAD NO PROBLEMS WITH HER IN LOS ANGELES. SHE WAS EXTREMELY POPULAR AND HER WON SO MANY AWARDS FROM FINE ARTS TO HELPING THE COMMUNITY. SHE KNEW RIGHT FROM WRONG. IF I WOULDN'T HAVE SENT HER BACK WHO KNOWS WHAT COULD HAVE HAPPENED.

BLONDIE, IT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY TEENAGE KIDS OR SMALL CHILDREN ATTENDING SCHOOL. I AGREE THERE ARE DRUGS AND ALL SORTS OF TERRIBLE THINGS IN ALL SCHOOLS NO MATTER WHICH STATE YOU LIVE IN, EVEN AT PRIVATE SCHOOLS. I JUST DON'T WANT THE NEW FAMILIES THAT ARE RELOCATING THINKING THAT ST. GEORGE IS A PERFECT BETTY CROCKER, LEAVE IT TO BEAVER COMMUNITY....BECAUSE IT'S NOT.

AS I SAID, I AM A PARALEGAL FOR OVER 20 YEARS, A SPECIALIST, SPEAK 3 FLUENT LANGUAGES AND IT IS A DISGRACE TO SEE THAT THE CITY, COUNTY AND STATE OF UTAH JOBS PAY STARTING RANGE 9.00 -12.00 PER HOUR. THE POLICE OFFICERS START AT 16.00 PER HOUR, THE TEACHERS (WHICH THERE IS A GREAT STORTAGE IN ST. GEORGE AND ALL OTHER CITIES IN UTAH, GET PAID ONLY 10.00 - 12.00 TO START! THE HOUSING MARKET HAS INCREASED
3X'S MORE. I CAN NOT UNDERSTAND HOW ANY FAMILY CAN OWN THEIR FAMILY DREAM TO OWN A HOME AND HAVE A FAMILY WITH THIS KIND OF INCOME! THIS IS THE TRUTH. THE NEWSPAPER CALLED "THE SPECTRUM" DOES NOT LIE. SEE FOR YOURSELF AS TO WHAT THEY OFFER. CONTACT THE WORKFORCE SERVICES AND SEE FOR YOURSELF ON LINE AS WELL AS THE CITY, COUNTY AND STATE JOBS FOR SECRETARY, CLERK, LEGAL DIVISION, TEACHERS, MEDICAL ASSISTANT, DENTAL ASSISTANT, PHARMACY CLERKS, AND STORE DELI HELPERS AND ETC. YOU WILL FIND NOTHING THAT PAYS MORE MORE THAN 16.00 PER HOUR. HOUSEKEEPERS AND HOTEL RECEPTIONIST GET PAID 7.00 PER HOUR. WAITERS GET PAID $2.15 PER HOUR BECAUSE THEY GET TIPS! ALL OTHER STATES THE WAITERS GET PAID MIN WAGE PLUS TIP.

AS FAR AS THE CONFUSION AS TO WORKERS COMPENSATION, STATE DISABILITY AND MEDICAL BENEFITS. EACH OF THOSE ARE SERVE FOR TOTALLY DIFFERENT NEEDS. IT IS A FEDERAL LAW THAT EMPLOYERS WITH MORE 2-3 EMPLOYEE'S MUST HAVE WORKERS COMPENSATION. MEDICAL HEALTH BENEFITS ARE NOT ALL PROVIDED BY EMPLOYERS. IN FACT, IF THEY ARE PROVIDED YOU MUST PAY PART OF YOUR PREMIUM OR ALL ( AND THAT IS ALSO DONE AT MANY STATES INCLUDING CALIFORNIA). HOWEVER, THE REASON I BROUGHT UP THE FACT ABOUT 'STATE DISABILITY ISSUE" (and this may be something you do not understand because it's not used in Utah state and some other states, actully only 6 states have S.D.) IS BECAUSE I HAVE MET SEVERAL PEOPLE THAT MOVED FROM CALIFORNIA TO UTAH AND WERE SO SUPRISED AND UPSET THAT UTAH DID NOT HAVE STATE DISABILITY PROGRAM. ACTUALLY, UTAH AND ALL OTHER STATES WOULD BENEFIT FROM STATE DISABILITY BECAUSE ONLY A SMALL PERCENT OFYOUR PAYCHECK PAYS INTO THE FUND. SO WHEN YOU OR ANYONE THAT IS EMPLOYED BECOMES ILL AND NEEDS SURGERY, CHEMO TREATMENT (LIKE I DID) OR WHEN YOU ARE OFF FOR MATERNITY LEAVE, OR ANYTHING ELSE THAT MAKES YOU BECOME SHORT TERM DISABLED AND NOT LONG TERM, THE YOU CAN GET 65% OF YOUR HIGHEST PAID OF INCOME AND YOUR EMPLOYER WILL PAY (DEPENDING ON THE EMPLOYERS ADDITIONAL BENEFIT) ANOTHER 20 TO 35% DIFFERENCE SO YOU CAN GET A FULL PAYCHECK UP TO 1 YEAR OR EXTEND IT UP TO 6 MORE MONTHS AND NOT LOSE YOUR JOB DUE TO MEDICAL LEAVE.

I GUESS (US) CALIFORNIANS ARE LUCKY TO HAVE BETTER PAY AND ADDITIONAL HEALTH BENEFITS PAID TO US WHEN WE FACE A GOD FOR SAKEN ILLNESS. NOW HERE THE PROBLEM IS THAT I MADE A VERY GOOD INCOME IN CALIFORNIA AND ST. GEORGE CAN NOT COMPETE WITH THAT SALARY. I ALSO CARRIED MY OWN MEDICAL INSURANCE TILL IT EXPIRED BUT GUESS WHAT, SINCE I HAD TO TAKE A JOB HERE THAT PAID ME A LOT LESS THEN WHAT I WAS MAKING OF MY SALARY, I COULD NOT AFFORD TO CONTINUE TO PAY MY MEDICAL INSURANCE AND DUE TO MY CANCER, I AM NOT ELIGIBLE FOR INSURANCE TILL AFTER 1 YEAR OF THE POLICY SINCE IT'S PRE-EXCISITING. HOWEVER, THESE MAY BE MY OWN PERSONAL PROBLEMS BUT YET IT'S ALSO A RIGHT THAT EVERY TRANSPLANT PERSON FROM ANOTHER STATE NEEDS TO KNOW, ESPECIALLY FROM CALIFORNIA, THAT UTAH DOES NOT HAVE WHAT CALIFORNIA PROVIDES. I MAY BE WRONG BUT IT'S OBVIOUS TO ME THAT SINCE 1977 YOU HAVEN'T LIVED ANYWHERE ELSE BUT ST. GEORE OR UTAH, RIGHT? SO HOW CAN YOU COMPARE THIS CITY TO ANY OTHER PLACES? I COULD ONLY TELL THE TRUTH TO WHAT I CAN COMPARE TO CALIFORNIA VS UTAH.

BLONDIE, I RECENT THE FACT THAT YOU ASSUME I AM NOT A HARD WORKING PERSON, LOYAL OR EDUCATED ENOUGH TO FIND A JOB THAT WOULD BE GLAD TO PAY ME WELL. LET ME ASK YOU THIS...YOU STATED THAT YOU HAVE BEEN HERE SINCE THE 70'S AND GOT MARRIED IN 1977. I KNOW NOW WHY U SAY THAT ST. GEORGE IS SO GREAT AND THIS & THAT, AND THE ANTI-MORMON CHIP ON THE SHOULDER AND THAT MORMONS ARE FRIENDLY AND THERE IS VERY LOW CRIME AND THERE ARE DRUGS BUT NO USAGE. WHAT A BUNCH OF BULL...LET ME PROVE AND MAY I MENTION THAT JUST YESTERDAY ON THE NEWS THEY CAUGHT AN OLDER MAN FROM ST. GEORGE UTAH WHO MOLESTED A 10 YEAR OLD GIRL WHO LIVED NEXT DOOR TO HIM? ALSO, HOW ABOUT THE TEENAGER BOY WHO WAS DOING DRUGS WITH HIS FRIENDS AND KILLED A YOUNG 15 YEAR OLD GIRL, RAPPED AND LEFT HER DEAD AT A SCHOOL PARK. THANK GOD SHE WAS FOUND BEFORE THE CHILDREN STARTED SCHOOL THAT MORNING. OR HOW ABOUT THE HUSBAND WHO CUT HIS WIFES THROAT IN FRONT OF HER CHILDREN AND HAD ASKED THE ST. GEORGE POLICE DEPT FOR A RESTRAINING ORDER AND CALLED THE POLICE SEVERAL TIMES DUE TO DOMESTIC ABUSE AND SHE DID NOT GET HELP UNTIL HE FINALLY KILLED HER. I COULD GO ON AND ON....ST. GEORGE IS A VERY BEAUTIFUL PLACE.

LET ME JUST BE VERY CLEAR SO THERE WILL NOT BE ANY MISUNDERSTANDING....I CHOSE TO LIVE HERE BECAUSE I LOVED WHAT I SAW, THE BEAUTY OF THE RED ROCK CANYONS, THE LAKES, NAT'L FOREST, THE REAL ESTATE MARKETIN 2004 WAS PERFECT FOR ME AND WAS ABLE TO INVEST. THE PEOPLE WERE FRIENDLY AND I LOVED THE SMALL TOWN FEELING, BUT HONESTLY, IT HAS GROWN SO MUCH MORE IN THE LAST 3 YEARS THAT EVEN THE LOCALS ARE COMPLAINING OF TRAFFIC (BUT FOR ME IT'S NOTHING SINCE I'M USE TO THE REAL TRAFFIC IN L.A.) AND NOW THERE ARE MORE & MORE NEW SUBDIVISIONS AND NEW HOMES, TOWNHOMES, GOLFCOURSE, ESTATES AND NEW OFFICE BUILDINGS TAKING UP ALL THE BEAUTIFUL DESERT AND VIEWS. I'M AFRAID IT WILL BECOME ANOTHER LAS VEGAS WITH NON STOP CONSTRUCTION!

YES, IT IS VERY BEAUTIFUL SMALL CITY....BUT IT'S NOT DISNEYLAND. I TELL YOU THAT I NEVER ONCE THOUGHT OF THE MORMONS HAVING TO HAVE ANY DIFFICULT PROBLEMS OF ANY SORT WHEN I DECIDED TO MOVE HERE. THAT IS WHY I MOVED. IN LOS ANGELES THERE IS FAR WORSE GOING ON THEN HAVING TO WORRY IF A LDS OR A CHRISTIAN OR CATHOLIC OR ANY OTHER RACE IS GOING TO LIKE ME AND ACCEPT ME AND MY FAMILY. I SAW WHAT I SAW. I BROUGHT MY HARD WORKING MONEY IN THIS CITY AND PURCHASED A HOME. I COULD HAVE PAID OFF MY HOME WITH MY CAPITAL AND OTHER SOURCES I HAD, BUT DON'T COMPARE MY FINANCIAL STATUS TO YOUR SON. IF HE PUT ALL HIS EGGS IN ONE BASKET GOOD FOR HIM. HOWEVER, I SAW WHAT WAS AHEAD OF THE LENDING MARKET AND KNEW THAT IT WOULD BE A BIG MISTAKE TO BUT ALL YOU HAVE $$$ DOWN ON A HOUSE, THAT MAY LATER BE APPRAISED FOR LESS AND YOU HAVE NO CAPITAL GAINS OR VERY LITTLE OF IT. I KNOW OF A COUPLE THAT PAID OFF THEIR HOME HERE IN ST. GEORGE "CASH" AND NOW IT'S WORTH LESS THEN THE APPRAISEL. HOPEFULLY, NEXT YEAR THE MARKET WILL EVEN OUT AND GO UP....THIS IS HAPPENING ALL OVER.

BUT AGAIN, I HAVE MY OPINION AND EVERYONE HAS THERES. I AM HARD WORKING, A GOOD CITIZEN, PARENT, WIFE AND HAVE TRAVELED AND LIVED MANY PLACES. UTAH WILL NOT BE MY RESTING PLACE....I HAVE THE WORLD TO SEE BUT THAT'S BECAUSE THAT'S MY DREAM AND MAYBE NOT YOURS.

NOW TO THE CRAVENCLAN FAMILY AND CHRISTINA, YOU HAVE TO MAKE YOUR OWN DECISION AND SEE FOR YOURSELF. I FOUND IT STRANGE THAT YOU BROUGHT UP THE ISSUE OF THE MORMON'S A NUMBER OF TIMES AS IF THESE PEOPLE WERE SOME KIND OF KKK'S LIVING HERE AND WERE AFRAID OF WHAT COULD HAPPEN TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILY. YOU MENTIONED YOU DON'T WISH TO CONVERT RIGHT? WELL SINCE I'VE LIVED HERE FOR ALMOST GOING ON 4 YEARS, I HAVE NOT ONCE BEEN ASKED TO CONVERT OR SAY ANTHING WRONG ABOUT MY FAITH. MORMONS OR LDS (WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL THEM) ARE CHRISTIANS. THEY BELIEVE IN JESUS AND GOD OUR HEAVENLY FATHER, AND THE CRUCIFICTION AND WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. I THINK YOUR CONFUSING THEM TO BUDDHISM OR JEHOVAH'S WITNESS. COULD THAT BE POSSIBLE?

BY THE WAY...I JUST ANSWERED YOUR OTHER POSTING QUESTION ABOUT HOLIDAYS IN ST. GEORGE, UTAH. YES, WE DO CELEBRATE HELLOWEEN AND CHRISTMAS, VALENTINE, NEW YEARS, AND PIONEER DAY! I BET YOU DON'T KNOW OF THAT ONE!

GOOD LUCK AND BEST WISHES

[The Casselli's]

Aeroick:

I must say that your choice of words and well said and done.

Thank you for clarification.

p.s. I have a headache....must blondie be always right

[CravenClan]

WOW!!! that was a long one, but a clear one.....

Thanks for the clarification. I never even once thought about mormons as KKK's or what ever you posted, i amy not know alot about religion, but i know they are not like. I only ask so i can make my own decisions......to learn somethingor try to figure it out, is to ask questions...

I was sad to hear about the molestings, killings, and rape, not that it doesn't happen anywhere, but those things do not make our paper regularly, they would be big issues if so, and we live in a small town (100k or so)

Good Luck to you.....

[Blondie-Rabbit]

OK we have both made assumptions about the other from posts we have made. Casselli, you just explained a lot about where you were coming from. This you have not in previous posts. First and foremost if you go back and read some of your previous posts, you will see the antagonism and in some cases false info about the state and Mormons you have posted. Like in the above long tyraid you said you worked in workmans comp first then it was paralegal. is it combined? or is it just a mistake?

Second I no longer have teenage kids, but they have been in schools all over the country, not just in Utah. I've seen what the schools are like in California (orange county and San Francisco area), Tucson, Las Vegas, Santa Fe NM, Park City Utah, Omaha Nebraska, and Nashville TN. If you want problems with school kids that will do worse than your daughter experiencved here in Utah, try Tennesse or Santa Fe NM. As for Pasadena being a perfect place, I can with great certainty say it is not. My Brother lives in Pasadena and the troubles he had with his kids there was unreal. In fact I would bet his daughter and yours know each other. The real kicker and this was in Utah, was the prostitution ring of Jr. High girls in Park City that got busted in the early 90's. What you mention happens everywhere. Your daughter had a lot of talents that were not met here. Moving from LA to Utah in particular St. George, You had to know up front there was not going to be the same opportunities here. 70K in the whole county, verses millions in the LA basin is not going to give you the same thing. it is foolish to assume it would.

Third, you got the wages too high for the area. They may advertise those wages being at those levels, but the reality is no one gets that kind of wage. If you have read any of my other posts you would see I'm the one who picks on the low wages. Again people coming here have to decide if the low wages is worth the scenery. You must have thought that, or you didn't do your homework.

Fourth, I guess you forgot to look at the sign at the border. This is UTAH not California. We do not have the same things California has. and griping about it when as even you say only 6 states in the USA offer state administered disability, does not mean that UTAH! will. We don't have prop 13 either. You got caught in a bad situation, and seem to be blaming the state of Utah for them not paying your way. Yes it is horrible you had cancer. Is it Utahs fault? No! You chose to move here. You if you had done your homework would have known there was no state disability. You couldn't know ahead of time you were going to be struck with Cancer, but that again is not UTAH's fault. That would have happened in any state other than the 6 where you were left exactly like you were.

Fifth I never said anything about you being educated, loyal or hardworking enough. That is your assumption not my words. You obviously have not read fully my posts. I've never said when I got married. It was 1980. I have not said I have lived in this state the whole time. I've listed the other places I have lived. Since 1980, It has been in many different states. Before that lests add Minnesota, Oregon, Colorado, Iowa, and Wyoming. For other countries I've lived in I was born in Denmark. I've lived in Norway, and spent a whole lot of time in Mexico. we have a vacation home in Mexico by the way. I've traveled to Thailand, Cambodia, Venezuela, Costa Rica, Guatemala, France, Sweden, Belgium, The Netherlands, England, Ireland, Switzerland, Germany, Isreal, Canada,and Croatia. But according to you I have never gotten out of Washington county. Shame on you for the assumptions. I've seen a whole lot of crap all over this country. My kids have been exposed to a lot that I wish they hadn't. It is not just Utah and St. George that has problems, but compared to everywhere else we have been, it is a wonderful place. BTW, the last place I lived was in Walnut Creek California. That is the East Bay are of San Francisco. we were there for 10 years. I know very well what California is like. I've lived in Cali three seperate times. When I was very small , After I first got married. both of which were in So. Cal, in and around LA. In fact back in the early 60's my dad owned a large chunk of LA county. Someone tried to kidnap me. My German Shepard dog saved me from that. After that my dad moved us out of state to safeguard us children. It didn't help he was at the time one of the wealthiest in the county. So sweets, do not assume you know me. I have lived in and around Utah several times. My sister was the first to move here long ago in the late 50's. She was not Mormon and moved to Provo. We have spent time visiting her, until my parents moved to be closer to her once I graduated from HS. I spent 1972 until 1980 in Cedar City. I spent 1991 until 1994 in Park City Utah. I moved back here 2 years ago. Is that enough info into my where abouts?

2004 was at the big crest of the influx of people coming to this area. Like so many it was the scenery combined with the affordable housing. Well that wave kept going. I'm also the one who decries the building in this county when there is no one buying. The affordable is no longer affordable. The locals can't even think of ever owning their own houses. I've said that many times. But again you have not really read my posts. the services are not in place to handle what they have. As to the driving here, they may know how to operate a vehicle, but they do not know how to drive. Traffic here at it's worst is like 3 am with no traffic in the Bay Area. Major thing you must remember this is not California. A lot of Californians moved in. And the bad rep Californias get here is due to their wanting it to be California. It is not! Reality, while the wave of the real estate boom was going it was going to grow. It was not going to freeze itself just because you moved here. Yes it has caused problems, not anymore than any other are ain the country that had the massive real estate boom. What is forgottne is that the area is also desert. There is a water shortage because of all of the new people. Cedar City is taking it in the shorts on that one. Last year they had their water bill raised 500% down from the initial 1200% tehy tried to foist on them. This so that Cedar could pay for the water pipeline being built from Lake Powell. Problem is not one person in Washington county has had their water bill raised to help pay for it. The terminus for that pipeline is Sand Hollow res. Cedar City is not even guarteed one drop of that water. Yet they are paying for the full bill of the pipeline. Someone is getting something under the table on that deal. That is not a Mormon problem, but a problem of greed that you will find any where else as well.

As for the market values of homes here, I have been saying for a long time that it was grossly over inflated. My daughter and her husband just bought a house in Walnut Creek/Concord area. That is in California. They paid 575K for it. it is a 2500 square ft house. Granted it is a postage stamp lot. One of the cheapest sub divisions in the county of Washington is near me. They are selling 1100 to 1200 sq. ft. houses for as low as 269K in actuality when you talk to them, they are 300K but the sign has not been updated.That same subdivision was listed as 199K when we moved here and before they started to actually build the houses. Those houses I've watched being built. They are crappily made. But here the attitude is that some stupid California will arrive and pay that for it. Reality is that Californias are not stupid, but those that thought they could make a fast buck on playing the real estate game have been caught in the downturn. Fact, in 1929 they had a stock market crash. This crash was brought on over several years of interest only mortgages, and adjustable rate mortgages given without any credit standards. It started a few years earlier than 1929 when people started to default on their loans. Slowly that built and banks started to default. In the end the snowball effect finally hit the market that was out of control with no real sense of why it was on such a happy joy ride of profits. Guess what! it is happening again today. We have the money to purchase a nice home here. We won't right now. I'm waiting for the full crash to happen and pick up a bargin after it.

As to the crime. Yes there is crime. I've not said there isn't. I could add stories to what you have said. Is it as much as other places? Hell no! Compared to the LA area, and yes even pristine Pasadena, it is far less per capita. Remember I'm the one who keeps talking about the meth labs. But again you have not read my posts. You just assume.

Utah will be my final resting place. I've lived far too many places, and traveled to even more. You would be surprised at my profession. I like it here, and have no preconceived notions about it. I know the area. I know the people. IN the 70's I dated jokingly half the male population of this end of the state. I knwo the families, I knwo the skeletons. I have many friends here that I've known for over 30 years. I've kept up on the area over the years of absence. I also knwo it is not California. If I wanted California, I would be living in California. there are mahy really spectacular places in that state.

DO NOt assume you know me or have really read my posts. It is obvious you have not really done so, only skimmed and made broad assumptions on skimming and no real reading. I too made assumptions based on what you did post. When you explained it more fully it became more plain. We all know why you are so antagonistic about Utah. Yes you are before you try to correct it.

[CravenClan]

I have been reading these posts, hourly i think...so i can see the respones. We, as a family, are trying to make an informed decision to move to Utah. I think both sides are realevant, and can see each side. We do have small children, so their furture is important to us. I love california, the weather, the attractions, our family is here, BUT i do not like the people that are here and what has become of our small town!! I look around, and while i want our kids to have goals and initiative, i more than anything want them to be considerate, caring, loving people. I know some will say, that what you teach them is what they will be, that is not always true. We can teach them all those things, but if you are surrounded by people that only care about themselves, are rude, inconsiderate, and selfish....well it could turn them another way.

My kids are young, 4, 3, and 5 months old.....so they are able to fit in anywhere (i wish it was that easy for us adults sometimes!!)

I want to teach them about god, because i do not know a whole lot...that doesn't mean i want to go to church every sunday, that doesn't mean i will give up my Tea at Starbucks, or my husbands coffee from there....i like to drink a beer now and then....i want to have friends whether they are lds or not, that are able to be open minded, and accepting. I think these things are almost impossible to find here. Neighbors, what neighbors, noone is outside, the garages are always closed, people are generally unfriendly. it is sad to me....

i am not going to Utah to be a millionare, i have read that is impossible anyways....(haha) i want to be around, i want to have my husband be around them, like he has already, and we raise them together. Not like here where alot of dads are non existant in their kids lives, all for the mom to stay home, drive new cars, have a house (that they can't afford) and go shopping...Yes there is more to life than shopping...

I think the times we have been to Utah, it is beautiful, the people were friendly, the weather is good (similar to here) i can't be in the cold, like freezing and snow blizzards, i would be miserable. We have looked at Utah, because it is close to California, our family, a slower pace of life and the people seem genuinley nice. You just don't find that in California, and remeber i am from a small area, NOT LA or San Diego....Temecula is between, SD and OC, yes you can commute, if you want to spend your life on the freeway, there is some industry here, not huge though....I think San Diego median income is $150k, and ours is between $67k-$79k, yearly. Housing is ridiculous, and we are in the foreclosure capital!!!!UGH!

Out of curiousity, The Casselli's....what brought you to Utah? Had you been there before, i can tell it was not the high paying jobs, because they seem non existant...

Blondie- what do you do for a living?? I know you have grown kids, so you are older than me, i am 33, so i maybe around your sons' age??

I know everyone has an opinion, and that is why i have posted here, i do not think anyone is claiming to be an expert, everyone is just giving their .02 cents!


PS TREBEK if you read this, i see you are in Austin, we looked there, via some friends, why are you there and why do you LOVE Utah and are you coming back to Utah???????

[The Casselli's]

Blondie:
answer to your first question. I AM A PARALEGAL SPECIALIST IN WORKERS' COMPENSATION. WE DEFEND INJURED WORKERS THAT GET INJURED AT WORK AND THE EMPLOYER OR THE WORK COMP INSURANCE COMPANY DOES NOT PROVIDE OR APPROVE THE MEDICAL OR BENEFITS THAT SHOULD BE PROVIDED. ANY INJURED WORKERS EVEN IF IT'S THEIR FIRST DAY ON THE JOB OR 40 YEARS ON THE JOB OR BLACK OR WHITE OR MORMON OR NOT OR
WOMEN OR MAN AND EVEN ILLEGAL ALIANS HAVE RIGHTS TO ALL WORKERS COMPENSATION BENEFITS. WHAT DOES IT MATTER EXACTLY WHAT I DO FOR A LIVING? HOPE MY ANSWER CLEARED THE SMOKE...LOL

YOUR NEXT ASSUMPTION...I NEVER SAID THAT PASADENA WAS PERFECT. NOTHING IS PERFECT...THE WORLD IS NOT PERFECT. SEEMS LIKE I HAVE TO CLEAR THE SMOKE A LOT MORE SO YOU COULD UNDERSTAND ABOUT MY DAUGHTERS EDUCATION. FIRST OF ALL, WHY I MENTION PASADENA AREA IS BECAUSE MOST LOCALS AND TRANSPLANTS FROM THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY AND ORANGE COUNTY AND EVERYONE IN THE WORLD KNOW "PASADENA" BECAUSE OF THE FAMAOUS ROSE PARADE. IF I MENTIONED WHAT SCHOOL SHE ATTENDED THE LOCALS WOULD NOT KNOW AND MAYBE SOME OF THOSE MOVING FROM OUTSIDE OF THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY, SO IT'S MUCH EASIER FOR ME TO MENTION PASDENA. MY DAUGHTER ATTENDED PRIVATE VIOLIN LESSIONS IN THE CITY OF PASADENA. AFTER HER AUDITION AT AGE 12 YRS OLD, SHE WAS ACCEPTED IN THE PHILHARMONIC (FOR YOUNG PLAYERS) AFTER SHE GRADUATED FROM THERE SHE WENT TO A HIGHER PROFESSIONAL LEVEL AND CONTINUED IN THE PHILHARMONIC FOR SEVERAL YEARS AND TRAVELED TO DIFFERENT COUNTRIES. SHE ATTENDED A SCHOOL IN THE CITY OF SAN MARINO. DO YOU KNOW SAN MARINO? WHEN EVER I ANSWER TO ANYONE, I ALSO SAY I'M FROM LOS ANGELES UNLESS I AM ASKED OTHERWISE BUT I DO NOT FEEL I NEED TO LET PEOPLE THAT I DON'T KNOW MY PERSONAL INFORMATION BUT BECAUSE I WANT TO MAKE IT CLEAR TO YOU SO THERE WIL NOT BE ANY MISUNDERSTANDING, I LIVED IN SEVERAL CITIES IN LOS ANGELES. PASADENA IN 1974 WAS A VERY UPSCALE AREA TO LIVE AND GO TO SCHOOL, BUT THINGS CHANGE AND PADADENA HIGH SCHOOL IS ONE OF THE WORSE SCHOOLS BUT DON'T CONFUSE THAT WITH SOUTH PASADENA HIGH, SO PASADENA IS A GREAT SCHOOL. WHAT I FOUND OUT ABOUT THE SCHOOL SYSTEM HERE IN ST. GEORGE, UT IS THAT YOU HAVE TEACHERS TEACHING YOUR CHILDREN EDUCATION AND THE TEACHERS THEMSELVES DO NOT HAVE THE REQUIREMENTS THAT SHOUJLD BE MANDTATED BY THE STATE OF UTAH. CALIFORNIA EVERY TEACHER MUST HAVE A LEAST THEIR BA AND WORKING ON THEIR MASTERS OR THEY CAN NOT TEACH. PERIOD. ALSO, IF YOU GO HIGHER UP ON THE SCHOOL BOARD THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA MANDATES A LOT MORE THEN UTAH. WHEN I INTERVIEW THE SCHOOLS BACK IN 2004 HERE IN ST. GEORGE, MOST OF THE TEACHERS HAVE BEEN TEACHING FOR MANY YEARS BUT ONLY HAD THEIR BA AND STILL NO MASTERS OR REQUIRED EXTENDED CERTIFCATES THAT SHOULD BE REQUIRED TO KEEP UP WITH THE NEW CHANGES WITHIN THE EDUCATION. I HAVE YET TO KNOW IF THEIR IS A SCHOOL PHYSIOLOGIST OR COUNSELOR WITH THE FULL STATE REQUIREMENTS AVAILABLE TO ASSIST THE STUDENTS OR FAMILY AT TIME OF NEED?

A PARALEGAL IS THE PERSON WHO DOES MOST OF THE RESEARCH ALONG WITH THE ATTORNEY, AS TO YOU STATEMENT THAT I SHOULD HAVE DONE MY RESERACH AS TO KNOWING ABOUT THE SCHOOLS HERE IN UTAH, I CERTAINLY DID. I FOUND OUT ABOUT TUACHAN AND I WAS TOLD AS SORTS OF WONDERFUL THINGS....IT WAS TOO LATE WHEN WE MOVED HERE! WHEN I FINALLY WAS ABLE TO INTEVIEW AND SEE WHAT THE SCHOOL HAD TO OFFER IT WAS NOTHING LIKE THE FINE ART SCHOOLS IN CALIFORNIA. THE BIGGER THE CITY THE MORE FINE ARTS YOU WILL HAVE TO CHOOSE FROM BUT YET YOU ALSO HAVE HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF STUDENTS WAITING IN LINE TO BE ACCEPTED IN THE FINE ARTS PROGRAMS IN HIGH SCHOOL. I HAD TO PAY PRIVATE EXTRA CLASSES BECAUSE THAT WAS MY DAUGHTERS REQUEST SINCE FINE ARTS SCHOOL COULD ONLY DO SO MUCH.

AS FAR AS YOUR STATEMENT TO THE WAGES: WAGES HERE IN UTAH HAVE GOTTEN EVEN LOWER! IN 2004, I ACTUALLY WAS ABLE TO GET A JOB THAT PAID SOMEWHAT DECENT, STILL NOT ANYWHERE NEAR WHAT MY SALARY WAS IN CALIFORNIA. YES, I KNEW THAT THE HOUSES WERE CHEAPER HERE THEN CALIFORNIA AND THAT IS WHY CALIFORNIANS AND NEW YORKERS AND ALL OTHER THAT MOVED FROM MINNOSOTA, ARIZONA, PHILDALPHIA, SAN FRANCISCO AND PARTS OF THE MID WEST AND UP NORTH (CALIFORNIA) ALSO HAWAII, BROUGHT ALL THERE NEW CAPITAL GAIN MONEY AND THOUGHT ST. GEORGE IS THE PLACE TO LIVE OR INVEST IN A SECOND HOME OR PURCHASE A RETIREMENT HOME. NONETHELESS, THE INTEREST RATES WERE AT IT'S BEST THE MARKET WAS GREAT AND WHY NOT? EVERYONE, WENT FOR THE JACKPOT, RIGHT? NOT JUST CALIFORNIANS, ALTHOUGH, IF IT WASN'T FOR OUR INVESTMENT, ST. GEORGE WOULD HAVE ALL THESE BEAUTIFUL NEW STREETS, AND NEW DEVELOPMENTS, IN FACT THE RED CLIFF'S MALL IS GETTING A FACE LIFE THAT IS COSTING OVER 1 MILLION DOLLARS!!! HOW ABOUT THAT! I WONDER WHERE THAT MONEY CAME FROM. THE MOVIE THEATERS ARE ALL STADUIM SEATING. THE OLDER ONES ARE JUST HANGING ON AND LOSING BUSINESS. IN 2004, BEAUTY INDUSTRY HAS GONE UP LIKE CRAZY. NAILS COST 35.00 AND HAIR DEPENDING ON HIGHLITES OR JUST COLOR COST ANYWHERE FROM 25.00 FOR A CUT AND IF YOU WANT IT STYLED OR COLORED 50.00-175.00! IT'S NOT BEVERELY HILLS FOR GOD SAKES! IF YOU NEED HOUSEKEEPING DONE IN YOUR HOME, YOU WILL NOT FIND ANYONE THAT CHARGES LESS THEN 20.00 PER HOUR!!!
YES IN DID! THE HOUSEKEEPERS MAKE $20.00 PER HOUR TO CLEAN YOUR HOME BUT IF YOU APPLY TO WORK IN ADMINISTRATION YOU WILL BE OFFERED 10.00-12.00 PER HOUR.

AGAIN FOR ALL RELOCATEDS GO TO YOUR COMPUTER AND GOOGLE ST. GEORGE, UTAH AND CLICK LOCAL NEWSPAPER "THE SPECTRUM" CHECK ALL THE JOB LIST THERE ALSO GO TO CAREERBUILDERS.COM AND SEE THE EMPLOYMENT LIST FOR ST. GEORGE. THERE ARE ALSO LINKS TO COUNTY, STATE AND CITY FOR GOVERMENT JOBS AND IT WILL BLOW YOUR MIND AS TO THE WAGES. THE RENT HERE FOR A 2 BEDROOM APT IN NOT SO NICE AREA IS GOING FOR 900.00 AND IF YOU WANT TO RENT A HOUSE IT'S GOING FOR 1200-1600.00 OR A NICER AREA YOUR GONNA PAY 2000.00 A MONTH. HOW CAN ANYONE AFFORD SUCH HIGH RENT WITH LOW LOW WAGES. IN FACT I JUST GOT BACK FROM CAROLINA AND FOUND THAT THE WAGES ARE TWICE AS HIGH AND THE HOUSING IS INEXPENSIVE AND THE COST OF FOOD, GAS AND PROPERTY TAXES ARE ONLY 800.00 FOR A BEAUTIFUL 3000 SQ FOOT HOME WITH AN ACRE LOT ONLY FOR LESS THEN 200,OOO NEAR A POND OR A LAKE! GREAT SCHOOLS TOO! VERY NICE PEOPLE AND A LOT MORE HISTORICAL SITES TO SEE AND YOUR ONLY 2 HOURS FROM THE COAST. JUST BEAUTIFUL....BUT AGAIN AS THINGS CHANGE, IN TIME THAT MAY CHANGE. IT JUST ALL PART OF LIFE.

AS TO BEING WHO I AM OR WHAT I AM, YOU CAN MAKE ALL THE ASSUMPTIONS YOU WANT, HONEY. I'M JUST BEING HONEST AS TO HOW IT IS HERE COMPARED TO A BIG CITY AS LOS ANGELES AND ORANGE COUNTY. IT IS VERY DIFFERENT AND DIFFERENT CAN ALSO BE BEAUTIFUL. I'M OFF TO PINE VALLEY WITH MY TWO DOGS TO ENJOY THE DAY THERE. THEN TO SEE A GREAT MOVIE AND MEET WILL ALL MORMON AND NON MORMON FRIENDS.

BLONDIE, I THINK YOU'VE BEEN IN ST. GEORGE UTAH WAY TO LONG! YOU'VE PAID YOUR DUES AND YOU HAVE RIGHTS TO BELIEVE IN YOUR LITTLE CITY OF UTAH. BUT IT'S CHANGING FAST JUST LIKE SALT LAKE CITY DID. HOPEFULLY, ST. GEORGE WILL CHANGE FOR THE BEST. IN 2004 THE THE POPULATION WAS ONLY 30,000, NOT IT'S 60,000 AND GROWING!

I HAVE REALLY ENJOYED MYSELF LIVING HERE AND MEETING NEW PEOPLE AND EXPLORING UTAH. THANK GOD FOR THE CALIFORNIAN TRANSPLANTS THAT CAME WITH MONEY.....BECAUSE OF US, THIS CITY HAS NOW A STARBUCKS AND AN OLIVE GARDEN!

"YOUR WORD "ANTAGONISTIC" IS NOT ME. I AM PERSON WHO IS DIRECT AND HONEST AND SAY ONLY AS TO WHAT I PERSONALLY HAVE EXPERIENCED. YOU MAY HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED OR COME ACROSS WHAT I HAVE HERE IN THIS SMALL TOWN OF UTAH. BUT I HAVE 3 COUNTS ALREADY AGAINIST ME. I AM A WOMEN, NON-MORMON, CALIFORNIAN, EDUCATED, AND NOT WHITE. IN THE JOB MARKET YOU THROW THE DICE AND SEE IF YOU GET LUCKY. THERE ARE NO WOMEN JUDGES HERE IN ST. GEORGE, NO WOMEN LAWYERS AND NO WOMEN DENTIST! WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU? MORMON RUN THE CITY AND STATE. YOU HAVE BETTER LUCK IN SALT LAKE CITY FOR THOSE LIKE ME THAT STILL NEED TO MAKE AN INCOME AND SURVIVE.

PEACE & LOVE TO ALL

[The Casselli's]

My Dear:

You Seem So Worried More For Your Children Then Anything Else. I Moved To A New Subdivision Community And Our Neighbors Also Have Their Garage Door Closed (most Of The Time) They Are Mostly Married Couples With No Children Or Teenagers. Although, We Are A Few Blocks From The Elementary School And High School. We Recently Had About 3 Families Move In Our Subdivision And Thier Children Are Also Under Then 6 Years Old.

We Say Hello To Our Neighbors And Share Conversation And Invite Them In For A Glass Of Wine Or Soft Drink But Mostly the friends that we have made here are Outside Of Our Subdivision. Our real friends from St. George we see every week at least 2 times per week, take turns Making Dinner, Invite Everyone over And End Up Playing Cards social converstaion, laughing all night long And somehow we end up at Mesquite ( This Is Not All The Time But Part Of The Time). It's All In Fun! However, Our Friends We Made Here Are Not From Utah. They are from relocators from out of State older couples retired. They Have No Small Children, only grandchildren. On The Other Hand I Have Made Friends With Mom's That Have Children From 2 Months Old To 16 Year Olds. Some Are Single Mom's And Some Have Been Married For 18 Years. I Am Open Minded And Really Weather They Are Married, Divoiced Or Living Together Or Remarried 7 Times, I Don't Care As Long As They Are Fun And Nice Friends. Speaking Of You Will Find In This Small Town That There Are Lots Of Lds Families That Have Been Married More Then 4x's!!! I Don't Know Why But Then Again I've Met Lds Couples Celebrating Thier 40th Or 50th Anniversary.

Christina, It's What You Make It. Your Children Are Small And If You Bring Them Know And Enroll Them In School, They Should Be Fine. However, Knowing About God Is Something You Will Need To Teach Them And Be A Part Of. Seems To Me That You Don't Want To Make A Commitment By Going To Church Every Week. Well, When Or How Do You Plan To Teach Your Little Ones About God?

Why Is Teaching Them About God Important For Them But Not Enough For You? Maybe You Need To Seek More Into That Thought. Having God In Your Life Is The Most Wonderful Gift Of The Higher Power To Get Us Through The Battles Of Our Life And Bless Our Life. Seems To Me That You Have A Calling For Your Children You Brought Into This World And Their Father As Well. Seek Spiritual Guidance. There Is A Wonderful Christian Church Here "calvory Chapel" Also Many Other Wonderful Chrisitan Churches Or Catholic Church (only 1) Here In St. George.

I Moved Here Because I Needed A Slow Pace Life, Balance And I Loved The View Of The Snow Canyons And The Peace And Engery The Red Rock Canyons Fed My Spirituality. Things Are Tough Here For Me Due To Employment And Such, But Next Year Will Be Better And I'm Already Making My Plan To Seek Adventure In Another Beautiful State. In The Meantime, I Have To Try To Keep My Head Above Water And I'm Having Fun With All My New Friends.

[The Casselli's]

Cravenclan!

I Came Across The Best Post Of A Family Just Like You With Kids Your Age And Concerns With Moving To Utah. They've Been Here For 6 Months Now And I Would Love For You To Read What He Wrote.

What A Blessing To See That God Always Uses Others To Give You Your Answer.

Check Out Post "mountainfaith"

[CravenClan]

The Casseli's

On the religion side of your post, i am not saying i do not need God in my life, but if i want it, i know where to look for it. We have Calvery Chapel here, quite a few, but i see a lot of hypocrits too....They may be on their way to church, speeding, flippin you off on their way, but "hey it's ok, we are on our way to church" (mentality) that is not me, i am not a hypocrit, i know who i am .. On the other side of that, we do occaisionally drink, swear at times, got to the river, gamble, we lived together before we were married, i am divorced, and have a 13 year old as well. Funny about the people you said had been married 4x or so, what religion are they, and how are they looked upon? Anyways religion, no matter what it is, is a very touchy subject at best. Here we don't talk about the Indians (the $$ they get from casinos) we don't talk about the immigration problems these are just a few that are HOT TOPICS!! Everyone has an opinion, and it is just that.

We are young, and we have young children...we looked at Utah, like i said before it is close to the things we love, but yet far enough away. Vegas is a s***t hole, and would never consider it...Bullhead City (laughlin) is either reitred or white trash, and a lot of people go there, just to go to the river, like we do, it is not somewhere we would live, we do have a second home there.

You are right, it is what you make it, and i think for us wanting to slow down, no rush, beautiful scenery, nice people, open minded and caring, Utah may be for us. Don't get me wrong, i loved Temecula, i have lived here for 20 years, and when we moved here it was small, it was not even a city, it was called Rancho California, there were maybe 15-20k people here, i think, i was in the 7th grade. I still love the idea of Temecula, it has everything we could want, no Nordstrom, but that is in Escondido or Riverside, i do not leave the are much, as there is not anything i need that i can't either buy here, or order on line. I just think the people are crappy, and the state is screwed up, yes we seem to have ok schools, but it seems the extras are cut when things go down hill, education is on the bottom of alot of lists at times.

I think it is sad, how much we pay athletes, rock stars, tv personalities, but cops, teachers, city/county resources are crap!! The healthcare is screwed, we pay big $$ for health insurance, we are self employed, and noone pays ourt benefits but US!! We have no employees, so we do not pay workers comp, we deal with licensed contractors/subs, they carry their own....We pay high commercial insurance for husbands work truck, and i remember 2 years ago when i looked into incorporating, they require workers comp, the crappy thing is they said you have to have it, BUT it doesn't cover illegal immigrants, BUT they can work here, pay no taxes, and sue you for everything you got if something happens?? Why is that?? That is when we cut our ties, and deal with other licensed contractors...the thing is, you try to do the "right" thing and it is still not right..Go figure (again here is one of those things we don't talk about, and i will probably get slammed for it) Remember, i am not throwing out statistics, i have not done any studies, i am only speaking from my experiences.....

When i was 19 and pregnant, married and working FT for a company that had NO health insurance, and my husband worked as well....I had to go to the state (medi-cal) to try to get insurance..i could not get it without meeting a $2000 a month "out of pocket" before they would cover anything!! But if i were from somewhere else, i could come here and have all the kids i wanted on the state of californias' tax payer $$!! My employer at the time, set up group insurance, i was lucky, and as you know if you work somewhere that offers benefits, there is no waiting or pre existing exclusion, in California.

There are other instances that fall into play, with experiences here, GOOD and BAD....It is what you make it no matter where you are

Thanks for your thoughts, gotta feed a little one!!