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I don't think I put much stock in a psychologist's definition of personality disorders overall, sorry. I mean look at the definition of "narcissist." Basically 90% of people could be called narcissists, and pretty much every great person who has ever been born COULD be called that. So then it comes down to the psychologist, whether they think you are or not. One could say, nah, you're fine, you're normal, sure you may be self-interested but so is everyone else. Another could say, "Oh my god you don't put other people before you?! Wow you're a horrible person you must be a narcissist." Looking over the definitions of a narcissist at least half were desirable personality traits, so how they can call that a disorder is just unbelievable to me. It's just imposing their philosophy on science, which doesn't make it true. It's still just someone's OPINION. In my opinion most people have moronic personality disorder, but that doesn't make it true either. It's just my opinion.
Like look at the Wikipedia definitions, here's a few...
"is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love"
I'm obsessed with achieving as much success, power, and brilliance as I possibly can. So what? I'm a perfectionist. Everyone should strive for what they can achieve, and why is it bad to seek ideal love if that's what you're into? I mean everyone I know wants one of those things on that list, and they want as much of it as possible. It's normal.
"believes that he or she is "special" and unique"
Ok so if you believe you're special or unique you're a narcissist? I believe I'm unique, just like everyone else. I believe everyone has special or unique traits about them, I don't care who they are, everyone IS special and unique, that's what's great about humanity. Even the most mediocre person probably has something really special about them to offer the world. I have no idea how you can seriously put this on a list of a personality DISORDER, when there's something really wrong with you if you DON'T think you're special or unique, and they label that "depression."
"lacks empathy"
Objection, your honor, hearsay! Sure, most people could say it's good to be empathetic, but that's an opinion. It's not an opinion that it's bad to have a low white blood cell count. IT IS BAD! Your body cannot fight off infections. It's bad for your health. Having little empathy except for your friends, for instance, is selectively advantageous, that's my devil's advocate argument. Point is I can't take anything seriously where points of a "disorder" are opinion-based, rather than fact-based, and that's pretty much the whole of psychology -- pseudo-science, based on philosophy not facts. Any "facts" that can be offered up only tell you what is "normal," and that depends on you thinking "normal" has value. I don't buy that argument. If it's abnormal that doesn't make it bad. So even in its scientific findings, psychology is at best an attempt to find what is "normal" and make everyone "normal," which is neither good nor desirable.
"is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her"
Well now this is just downright confusing. If people are actually envious of you, does that make you a narcissist? And how do you know if they're really envious or not? So if I said that you are a narcissist because I know you're envious of what I have, then I've just accidentally implicated myself because now I might be a narcissist too! DANG. That's bad news! I can't even diagnose you as being a narcissist without wondering if I'm one too. Because in my diagnosis of you, I just realized that I think you ARE envious of what I have, and that made me feel special, and if I'm special that makes me desire prestige and power, and that power I have over you to make this diagnosis just proves how little empathy I have for you, because in reality I'm a humble guy but... oh crap, I'm acting like I'm humble so now I KNOW I must be a narcissist. This is so confusing I can't tell whether I'm accusing you of being a narcissist or accusing myself.
Another found elsewhere... "...some narcissistic people withdraw socially and may feign modesty or humility." -- Yeah, so if you diagnose someone with this "disorder," you can say their humility is just an act. That's really convenient. Wow, this thing has all of the bases covered. So basically if I accuse you of being narcissistic you have NO defense whatsoever. It's like a witch trial. Good luck proving you're not you evil narcissist, of course you deny having no empathy for others, but you have no empathy for me so you're a narcissist. Oh and I know you think you're special, I know you want prestige in your career, that makes you a narcissist. You can't prove you're not because the more humble you act the more of a narcissist you are. Faker!
BOTTOM LINE: If you are accused of being a narcissist you have no way to prove otherwise. It's totally unfalsifiable because it's just an opinion. It's like if I call you a moron, well, it's just an insult so you can't really refute it. Narcissism is the same way. Everyone clearly has a different definition, since every psychologist can diagnose differently, and what one thinks is normal another things makes you a narcissist. It's a total witch hunt. When it comes down to it it's just another attempt by psychology to make their philosophy the dominant viewpoint.
I actually found in a health book talking about psychological well-being that if you don't have a strong desire to help other people you don't know, you are psychologically unhealthy. It went on to say that you should value other people more than yourself. I wrote to the editor and said you cannot seriously put your OPINIONS into a book you are passing off as fact and expect people to take this seriously. I don't mind opinions, there is room for everyone to think differently. What I take issue with is anyone stating their opinions as scientific facts. Psychology does this constantly, without any supporting research.
LB you didn't read the definition of personality disorder....it is rigid patterns of behavior, you have to meet 5 or more of the criteria and be distressed.
So if you are irritating and alienating people with your traits but are not distressed by that then I guess you are Scott-Free according to psychologists ...... if you are proud of your crazy personality then I guess you are considered not mentally ill (normal) does that really make sense? Not really!! .....There are other books and journals of psychology out there that go into depth on PDs. Psychologists are supposed to diagnose based on that info and other assessments, according to what I've read online and heard from others...
And to argue against your point......normal doesn't always mean good....
I do agree with you that psychology forces opinions on people though and isn't very scientific or well researched at times....which stinks...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonathanLB
I don't think I put much stock in a psychologist's definition of personality disorders overall, sorry. I mean look at the definition of "narcissist." Basically 90% of people could be called narcissists, and pretty much every great person who has ever been born COULD be called that. So then it comes down to the psychologist, whether they think you are or not. One could say, nah, you're fine, you're normal, sure you may be self-interested but so is everyone else. Another could say, "Oh my god you don't put other people before you?! Wow you're a horrible person you must be a narcissist." Looking over the definitions of a narcissist at least half were desirable personality traits, so how they can call that a disorder is just unbelievable to me. It's just imposing their philosophy on science, which doesn't make it true. It's still just someone's OPINION. In my opinion most people have moronic personality disorder, but that doesn't make it true either. It's just my opinion.
Like look at the Wikipedia definitions, here's a few...
"is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love"
I'm obsessed with achieving as much success, power, and brilliance as I possibly can. So what? I'm a perfectionist. Everyone should strive for what they can achieve, and why is it bad to seek ideal love if that's what you're into? I mean everyone I know wants one of those things on that list, and they want as much of it as possible. It's normal.
"believes that he or she is "special" and unique"
Ok so if you believe you're special or unique you're a narcissist? I believe I'm unique, just like everyone else. I believe everyone has special or unique traits about them, I don't care who they are, everyone IS special and unique, that's what's great about humanity. Even the most mediocre person probably has something really special about them to offer the world. I have no idea how you can seriously put this on a list of a personality DISORDER, when there's something really wrong with you if you DON'T think you're special or unique, and they label that "depression."
"lacks empathy"
Objection, your honor, hearsay! Sure, most people could say it's good to be empathetic, but that's an opinion. It's not an opinion that it's bad to have a low white blood cell count. IT IS BAD! Your body cannot fight off infections. It's bad for your health. Having little empathy except for your friends, for instance, is selectively advantageous, that's my devil's advocate argument. Point is I can't take anything seriously where points of a "disorder" are opinion-based, rather than fact-based, and that's pretty much the whole of psychology -- pseudo-science, based on philosophy not facts. Any "facts" that can be offered up only tell you what is "normal," and that depends on you thinking "normal" has value. I don't buy that argument. If it's abnormal that doesn't make it bad. So even in its scientific findings, psychology is at best an attempt to find what is "normal" and make everyone "normal," which is neither good nor desirable.
"is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her"
Well now this is just downright confusing. If people are actually envious of you, does that make you a narcissist? And how do you know if they're really envious or not? So if I said that you are a narcissist because I know you're envious of what I have, then I've just accidentally implicated myself because now I might be a narcissist too! DANG. That's bad news! I can't even diagnose you as being a narcissist without wondering if I'm one too. Because in my diagnosis of you, I just realized that I think you ARE envious of what I have, and that made me feel special, and if I'm special that makes me desire prestige and power, and that power I have over you to make this diagnosis just proves how little empathy I have for you, because in reality I'm a humble guy but... oh crap, I'm acting like I'm humble so now I KNOW I must be a narcissist. This is so confusing I can't tell whether I'm accusing you of being a narcissist or accusing myself.
Another found elsewhere... "...some narcissistic people withdraw socially and may feign modesty or humility." -- Yeah, so if you diagnose someone with this "disorder," you can say their humility is just an act. That's really convenient. Wow, this thing has all of the bases covered. So basically if I accuse you of being narcissistic you have NO defense whatsoever. It's like a witch trial. Good luck proving you're not you evil narcissist, of course you deny having no empathy for others, but you have no empathy for me so you're a narcissist. Oh and I know you think you're special, I know you want prestige in your career, that makes you a narcissist. You can't prove you're not because the more humble you act the more of a narcissist you are. Faker!
BOTTOM LINE: If you are accused of being a narcissist you have no way to prove otherwise. It's totally unfalsifiable because it's just an opinion. It's like if I call you a moron, well, it's just an insult so you can't really refute it. Narcissism is the same way. Everyone clearly has a different definition, since every psychologist can diagnose differently, and what one thinks is normal another things makes you a narcissist. It's a total witch hunt. When it comes down to it it's just another attempt by psychology to make their philosophy the dominant viewpoint.
I actually found in a health book talking about psychological well-being that if you don't have a strong desire to help other people you don't know, you are psychologically unhealthy. It went on to say that you should value other people more than yourself. I wrote to the editor and said you cannot seriously put your OPINIONS into a book you are passing off as fact and expect people to take this seriously. I don't mind opinions, there is room for everyone to think differently. What I take issue with is anyone stating their opinions as scientific facts. Psychology does this constantly, without any supporting research.
IMO, too many diagnoses are thrown around these days...while some are valid many are just excuses for bad behavior and another sign that we, as a society, take no responibility for bad deeds...
ya like when I read about a narcissist, I think that sounds more like a rude and selfish jerk/bully...not really a mental illness .... so I don't see a point in a diagnosis...just a good abrasive lecture about social etiquette once a week should do....
Another problem with sociopaths and NPDs is they naturally don't like relationships and they leech off of people in relationships....so my advice is don't get into a relationship with a sociopath or NPD...stop trying to force them into a relationship or a friendship....or stop forcing them into being empathic...because that just isn't going to happen for them, it goes against their nature or something...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrstewart
IMO, too many diagnoses are thrown around these days...while some are valid many are just excuses for bad behavior and another sign that we, as a society, take no responibility for bad deeds...
That's pretty much true. I guess it just depends on what you value and admire, though. You mentioned House because I'm recently obsessed with that show and the character. To me, I love House, I admire him, not because he's brilliant in the show (that too, duh) but because I LIKE his personality. His sarcasm, his wit, the fact that he says whatever he feels like, that he's always brutally honest, that he isn't normal. I find him extremely admirable. Other people think he's a big jerk who needs to learn humility, social etiquette, and manners. I am not saying I condone everything he does, but probably 98% of it. The only thing I would say is he's a bit stubborn to apologize. Sometimes it's a lot easier to say you're sorry than to screw around with being stubborn But in general I find him an admirable character. What a boring place the world would be if everyone were the same, everyone were this pleasant, normal, uninteresting perfect psychological specimen. That doesn't much appeal to me...
Let's also not forget -- because it's relevant -- that the DSM-IV guidelines for psychology had being gay as a psychological disorder not that long ago. It's all based on what is normal, and since being gay isn't "normal" that was a "disorder." Psychology has very little tolerance for anything that isn't right at the mean of the bell curve. Even if being gay is "weird" and not normal, even if it is "strange" to someone, so what?! Who isn't strange in some way? It's just nonsense.
House is great. I like the show too.
I agree with you that most people can meet criteria for a personality disorder and I find that absolutely boring and bland....people are all the same these days...no individuality like you mentioned....House is an individual and that makes him interesting....
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonathanLB
That's pretty much true. I guess it just depends on what you value and admire, though. You mentioned House because I'm recently obsessed with that show and the character. To me, I love House, I admire him, not because he's brilliant in the show (that too, duh) but because I LIKE his personality. His sarcasm, his wit, the fact that he says whatever he feels like, that he's always brutally honest, that he isn't normal. I find him extremely admirable. Other people think he's a big jerk who needs to learn humility, social etiquette, and manners. I am not saying I condone everything he does, but probably 98% of it. The only thing I would say is he's a bit stubborn to apologize. Sometimes it's a lot easier to say you're sorry than to screw around with being stubborn But in general I find him an admirable character. What a boring place the world would be if everyone were the same, everyone were this pleasant, normal, uninteresting perfect psychological specimen. That doesn't much appeal to me...
Let's also not forget -- because it's relevant -- that the DSM-IV guidelines for psychology had being gay as a psychological disorder not that long ago. It's all based on what is normal, and since being gay isn't "normal" that was a "disorder." Psychology has very little tolerance for anything that isn't right at the mean of the bell curve. Even if being gay is "weird" and not normal, even if it is "strange" to someone, so what?! Who isn't strange in some way? It's just nonsense.
You are right. Gay was a psychological disorder back in the day.
The problem is that sociopaths and NPDs are incredibly frustrating and draining people to live with and work with...can you imagine doing team work with somebody at your job that wants you to fail and doesn't have empathy for you? Can you imagine living with somebody that is so self centered and aggressive that you cannot develop a friendship or bond with them? I mean come on, there are differences between gay (harmless to others and self) vs. sociopath and NPD (no guilt, emotional abuse, users, selfish, controlling, etc.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonathanLB
Let's also not forget -- because it's relevant -- that the DSM-IV guidelines for psychology had being gay as a psychological disorder not that long ago. It's all based on what is normal, and since being gay isn't "normal" that was a "disorder." Psychology has very little tolerance for anything that isn't right at the mean of the bell curve. Even if being gay is "weird" and not normal, even if it is "strange" to someone, so what?! Who isn't strange in some way? It's just nonsense.
I agree, nobody wants to be with someone who really seems to lack any empathy or understanding for them at all, and has only a concern for themselves. I'm primarily interested in my own goals and ambitions, but not at the expense of people I know. Hopefully, to help them out as well. You get further in life helping other people who may return the favor for you later. There is always more strength with greater connections. That's what some people don't realize. Favors can be a big difference between getting somewhere and getting nowhere. The best way to look after your own self-interest, in other words, is also to focus on other people's interests. It may seem odd but it's definitely true. This is what our economy was based on, actually -- "enlightened self-interest." In other words, I'm going to want to make the best product possible so I can compete with my rivals and sell more products, thus make more money. But in so doing, I'm increasing the quality of products available to consumers, who in turn have better options, thus everyone benefits. If a lot of companies are competing to cure cancer, does anyone really care if they just want the money / financial windfall?! I don't care at all! Your motives are NOT important to me. I'm sick of people acting like motives are everything. Yes, ABC drug company only wants to cure cancer to make billions. WHO CARES?! If that's what gets them pouring research dollars into a cure, GREAT, that will save lives. If a doctor had noticed breast cancer in my mom earlier only to save her own butt, because she didn't want to get sued, my mom would still be alive today. I don't care if her motive was impure because it doesn't affect my life at all. If she cares about every patient and wants to save as many people as possible, so that's why she noticed my mom's cancer earlier, the result would be exactly the same -- my mom living.
That's one reason I respect and admire House. Yeah, sometimes he doesn't care about the patients at all as people. He only sees them as a puzzle, a disease to solve, the only thing that interests him is the disease and solving this puzzle. But because he is a genius and because he enjoys what he does, even though his motives may not warm your heart, he SAVES lives! The end result is far better than a doctor who is only marginally intelligent but cares about all of his patients, yet is unable to save them because he lacks the intelligence.
Motivations are like a fart in the sewer, who really cares.
I think think the author has sociopath and narcissistic personality disorder lumped together. A sociopath is an extreme form of narcissism. The sociopath is capable of violence.
Antisocial Personality Disorder results in what is commonly known as a Sociopath. The criteria for this disorder require an ongoing disregard for the rights of others, since the age of 15 years. Some examples of this disregard are reckless disregard for the safety of themselves or others, failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors, deceitfulness such as repeated lying or deceit for personal profit or pleasure, and lack of remorse for actions that hurt other people in any way. Additionally, they must have evidenced a Conduct Disorder before the age of 15 years, and must be at least 18 years old to receive this diagnosis.
People with this disorder appear to be charming at times, and make relationships, but to them, these are relationships in name only. They are ended whenever necessary or when it suits them, and the relationships are without depth or meaning, including marriages. They seem to have an innate ability to find the weakness in people, and are ready to use these weaknesses to their own ends through deceit, manipulation, or intimidation, and gain pleasure from doing so.
They appear to be incapable of any true emotions, from love to shame to guilt. They are quick to anger, but just as quick to let it go, without holding grudges. No matter what emotion they state they have, it has no bearing on their future actions or attitudes.
They rarely are able to have jobs that last for any length of time, as they become easily bored, instead needing constant change. They live for the moment, forgetting the past, and not planning the future, not thinking ahead what consequences their actions will have. They want immediate rewards and gratification. There currently is no form of psychotherapy that works with those with antisocial personality disorder, as those with this disorder have no desire to change themselves, which is a prerequisite. No medication is available either. The only treatment is the prevention of the disorder in the early stages, when a child first begins to show the symptoms of conduct disorder.
This is pretty bad, but this sounds a LOT like my husband. Nothing seems to bother him-you can be crying your eyes out and he'll just sit there like a stone..no reaction or comfort. He finds it impossible to say "I love you". He thinks the world "owes" him something. He can't keep a job; everybody's out to get him; he complains but never listens to advice or takes steps to fix his life; empathy is not part of his personality at all; he's quick to get angry, esp. when caught in a lie or when asked too many questions; he has more regard for animals than he does his own family. "Please','Thank You' and 'I'm sorry' will never leave his lips.Telling him that he makes your life miserable goes in one ear and out the other; he doesn't lift a finger to do anything; he seems to have an intense need to be liked by people (can't say no-well, to friends and strangers, anyway...family's needs get neglected); I could go on, but you get the point. I always figured it was because his Dad was a military-man who ruled the house with an iron fist and treated my husband like crap growing up, but his brother was raised by the same man and he's not like this. So now I'm wondering if my husband is a sociopath, too.
Last edited by jersgrl1969; 11-01-2008 at 02:47 PM..
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I believe everyone has special or unique traits about them, I don't care who they are, everyone IS special and unique, that's what's great about humanity. Even the most mediocre person probably has something really special about them to offer the world. I have no idea how you can seriously put this on a list of a personality DISORDER, when there's something really wrong with you if you DON'T think you're special or unique, and they label that "depression." 
I always figured it was because his Dad was a military-man who ruled the house with an iron fist and treated my husband like crap growing up, but his brother was raised by the same man and he's not like this. So now I'm wondering if my husband is a sociopath, too.
