[NYLIER]

Originally Posted by Arktikos

I would want one, and so do a lot of people in equally cold Maine. (See below)

A weak grid is problematic in many ways, for sure.
For an off grid home, heat pump doesn’t seem feasible.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ital-of-the-us

You will still need another way of heating your house. They are good at cooling a home, not keeping it warm when it gets below 20 degrees.

[NYLIER]

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

It's below zero often enough in Essex County you don't want a heat pump. The electric grid in VT is not in good shape. It's already struggling at peak times, especially in summer when people run their AC. Infrastructure in VT in general is in poor shape, be it roads, bridges, public buildings, the power grid, municipal water systems, dams, etc. All those taxes have not been put into critical areas but in more discretionary programs. Which means a lot of major infrastructure projects will become necessary in a short span of time, and soon. The state has been relying for years on our senators and congressman bringing in lots of federal funds to feed the state's spending habits. But that may dry up eventually.

My house is off grid. Solar panels for power, but that power supply is limited in winter because of cloudiness and the cold temps wreak havoc on the battery bank (reduces its efficiency). Heat must work in my house without power. That means wood (primary) and propane which kicks in when the wood goes out to protect the pipes (secondary). As the state pushes electric cars too, I have to point out to the advocates that to use one at my house means running a gas generator to produce the power required. Then there's the mud season problem with those smaller vehicles. 5 miles of dirt road between my house and the nearest paved road. Life in rural Essex County is a different world from Burlington or Montpelier or the Upper Valley. The fiscal and regulatory policies of Montpelier cause a lot of struggles for people here. It's easy for someone making twice the median household income statewide to say the taxes aren't that bad. Tell that to my neighbor making under $30K a year and living in a place ready to fall down around him and driving a truck on its last legs he can't afford to replace if it dies. There literally isn't even a grocery store within 30 miles of me on the VT side of the river, but just over the river in NH there is. Arrogant elitists created these high taxes and care not how much suffering it causes others.

Try talking to some of these arrogant politicians that refuse to listen to the taxpayers they are working for. A majority of taxpayers didn't want our Representatives to vote for S.5, which will raise our fuel rates. They didn't listen to the people in this state and refused to budge. They did vote for Bills that financially made their lives easier though. The lack of common sense is amazing. Most of the people talk out of both sides of their mouth...they're struggling to make ends meet and then they vote to approve school budgets.

[NYLIER]

Originally Posted by RobinWoods

They kinda do, actually. And they aren't particularly polite about it. My daughter works at a retail store and older men have come in there and physically grabbed her arm (which she doesn't like regardless, autistic trait) and asked her to let them pray for her to "save her soul" or "bring her to Jesus". And then get upset when she pulls away and tells them not to touch her or pray, and call her a sinner and going to hell.

That is crossing over the boundary line of what is acceptable, in my opinion.

[arctichomesteader]

Originally Posted by Arktikos

I would want one, and so do a lot of people in equally cold Maine. (See below)

A weak grid is problematic in many ways, for sure.
For an off grid home, heat pump doesn’t seem feasible.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ital-of-the-us

When the temps drop real low they use an electric resistance heating element to keep functioning. Even propane is cheaper.

[arctichomesteader]

Originally Posted by NYLIER

Try talking to some of these arrogant politicians that refuse to listen to the taxpayers they are working for. A majority of taxpayers didn't want our Representatives to vote for S.5, which will raise our fuel rates. They didn't listen to the people in this state and refused to budge. They did vote for Bills that financially made their lives easier though. The lack of common sense is amazing. Most of the people talk out of both sides of their mouth...they're struggling to make ends meet and then they vote to approve school budgets.

I wish the committee meetings on those bills had been broadcast in full on TV. It would have been eye opening for some to hear people like dick mccormack.

[arctichomesteader]

Some relevant news: https://www.wcax.com/2023/11/30/vt-e...erty-tax-hike/

[harry chickpea]

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

Some relevant news: https://www.wcax.com/2023/11/30/vt-e...erty-tax-hike/

So, if a home worth $250,000 is currently paying a tax of $3,000/yr and $600 gets tacked on. that is about 1.4% of the value. Add $1,200 required homeowner insurance and that is close to $5,000 plus the mortgage.

Vermont income tax rate is what? Around 8%? Federal on someone making around $80,000 is 22%. ,All totaled after all deductions, about $60,000 would be take home on that $80,000.
Subtract the $5,000 for tax and insurance and you are down to $55,000 spendable. With 7% sales tax on most things after this, you are down to $51,000 spendable.

Figure $4 gallon gas prices and a $25,000 car bought a couple years ago with 20 mpg average, driven 13,000 miles per year. $1,600 gas cost. Auto insurance per year $2000. Summer and winter tires $1000. $400 misc auto and it is about $5000, you are down to $46,000. $500/mo food = 6,000/yr. Now you are down to $40,000.

Health insurance silver plan for just one person is $11,000/yr, you are down to $29,000 or $18,000 if a couple. Now that mortgage? Let's say it is on $200,000. The monthly payment is about $1,300 or $15,600/yr. You are now at either $13,400 or $2,400 if a couple. Oh yeah, that car loan on a $20,000 car is about $4500 per year. The single has about $8,900 left, the couple has gone in the hole or left the state.

$8,900 left. $500 for clothes isn't unreasonable for a thrifty shopper. Dental, glasses, OTC health products, what, $1,000 per year? Christmas gifts and such? $500. Phone $50/mo = $600. Heating costs to get through the winter $2,000. $4,300. Electric $200/mo, water $50/mo = $3,000. $1,300 left. Cable TV and internet access could eat that in a second.

And then comes a flood...

Just in case you were wondering, a GROSS pay of $15/hr, 40 hour work week, 50 weeks per year is $30,000. TWO people working at that rate fall $20,000 short of the $80,000 per year figure I used.


All of the above figures are off-the-cuff and to show a VERY rough accounting. There are errors, (do your own and correct the errors, don't bother nit-picking) but the thrust is there regardless. What is generally considered a "normal" lifestyle is difficult to impossible in Vermont. Even back when I lived there it was common to see people who had inherited their home driving around in old cars, with minimal insurance.

[arctichomesteader]

A lot of towns are doing reappraisals this year so it's going to be even worse than the article suggests for a lot of people.

[Riley.]

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

Some relevant news: https://www.wcax.com/2023/11/30/vt-e...erty-tax-hike/

You beat me to it.....

Here's another story on this forecast. Worth reading the letter from the president of the senate.
https://www.mychamplainvalley.com/ne...OVgxhrVfuZ6dlE

I think we may have lurched into the unaffordable if this passes. Remember, too, there is a veto proof majority.
sigh

EDIT: We may be passing the point of diminishing returns. ha!

[RMESMH]

Originally Posted by Riley.

Listen, we are Americans and we can complain about whatever we want. (see the pension thread). The taxes in VT are a valid complaint!!

Where do you live? What are YOUR taxes like?

Anyhoo...I'll take a stab at this.

We left Los Angeles to move here 20 yrs ago. We travelled through Maine, NH, and then VT and were very attracted to the rolling green landscape.

The air was fresh and clean and still is for the most part. The lakes, ponds, rivers and streams are clean, although there are places with algae problems and that cyanobacteria.

There was very little crime back then (things are changing in that regard, but that's another thread). Most of the crime is drug related.

There is virtually no traffic.

People are generally nice once you get to know them and it's the kind of place where people will let you go first at the intersection, have the parking spot they were going to pull into, or even pull over on the side of the road if you are stopped and ask you if you need any help. (don't let a somewhat gruff exterior dissuade you).

The seasons are beautiful, sometimes fierce, but hey, this is Earth. There is a lot to be said for living with the rhythms of nature. A lot.

We are generally not subject to the unrest and violence of the big city. "Protests" are usually 10-15 old hippies holding signs or candles.

It is quiet. You can hear leaves falling off the trees.

I think my husband put it very well when he said "It is worth the price of admission." because taxes and costs are high, but the tradeoffs to move to somewhere less expensive don't seem worth it.

lol.