Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Here's a video from Aptera hamming it up about their "automotive grade" solar design. That term appears to be used by Sono Motors as well for its Sion.
I think this will be something of a niche car - for engineering nerds, efficiency nerds, green nerds, but, it's very well done. I think they may just succeed commercially - my understanding is that it doesn't cost that much to set up composite molding of body panels, relative to steel stampings, so their capital outlays for manufacturing should be more modest... wheel motors were outsourced to partner Elaphe, which should also save some R&D and production cost. They partnered with Roush Performance on suspension development. Of course, these partners need to be paid, their involvement isn't free, but for a company with modest cash that's just trying to get off the ground, I think that using off the shelf components and partnering are good practices to achieve liftoff.
I think this will be something of a niche car - for engineering nerds, efficiency nerds, green nerds, but, it's very well done. I think they may just succeed commercially - my understanding is that it doesn't cost that much to set up composite molding of body panels, relative to steel stampings, so their capital outlays for manufacturing should be more modest... wheel motors were outsourced to partner Elaphe, which should also save some R&D and production cost. They partnered with Roush Performance on suspension development. Of course, these partners need to be paid, their involvement isn't free, but for a company with modest cash that's just trying to get off the ground, I think that using off the shelf components and partnering are good practices to achieve liftoff.
Oh yea, I definitely don't think this is going to be a particularly common vehicle or even type of vehicle. It's an interesting engineering challenge that some people will absolutely love if they make it into production, but the design challenge they're going for is essentially most energy efficient two people + some cargo vehicle which isn't necessarily what most people prize. These vehicles are surprisingly large in terms of total length and especially width, but don't pack a lot of people or things in. However, I think it's an interesting challenge to tackle with enough of a niche market, and if they do find success with this, then it'd be interesting to see what their followup would be especially one that weights more heavily other practical concerns like vehicle size and versatility. They may still very well in that roadmap be able to have enough efficiency to be usable solely off of built-in solar and battery pack as there is still a good deal of ongoing research and theoretical room for improvement when it comes to battery energy density, lightweighting of materials, and solar cell efficiency. I hope they get to that next stage!
Unfortunately, no announcements on if and when they'll bring this to the US, but if they're doing a tour of the US then they are at least considering the idea. They just did NYC on the 10th and are headed to Boston (Oct 12), Detroit (Oct 17), San Francisco Bay Area (Oct 24-25), San Jose (Oct 26) and Los Angeles (Oct 27-28).
Unlike Aptera, this is a much more "normal" car though it'd still be weird in the US as a compact hatchback since we've gone CUV, SUV, and pickup crazy. They're targeting an additional 112 km (69 miles) average / 245 km (152 miles) max generated range from solar a week with this vehicle. Here's an information sheet: https://sonomotors.com/site/assets/f...eet_sion_1.pdf
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 10-12-2022 at 08:16 AM..
These aren't meant for these vehicles to power solely off of power generated by the solar panels since these are diesel buses, but rather as a supplement to auxiliary power draw.
Makes sense... Prius used this, at least in one of their models, for powering the HVAC system... or at least to supplement it. I suppose the better these panels get, the more efficient the motors get, and the more efficient the batteries get... the more feasible solar charging will become... at least to help augment EV battery charging.
Makes sense... Prius used this, at least in one of their models, for powering the HVAC system... or at least to supplement it. I suppose the better these panels get, the more efficient the motors get, and the more efficient the batteries get... the more feasible solar charging will become... at least to help augment EV battery charging.
Yep, some models of the Prius did have that and it was meant to help cool the car while parked so you don't walk into a completely sweltering vehicle. I think it was even simpler than that, unless there were multiple versions, where it just ran a fan to vent out hot air.
Totally agree with what you said abouut the different parts getting more efficient. I think one thing to note about battery improvements is that as the energy density of batteries improve and as range improves, there's probably going to be a point where putting those energy density improvements to simply more range isn't that much of an attracting force. When that happens, then more of the energy density improvements can go towards making the battery lighter, the structural elements supporting the battery weight lighter, and thus the overall weight of the vehicle lighter and making it even more efficient per kWh of energy. The first glimpse of that in a production EV we've had so far is the revamp of the Model S and Model X last year where they both increased range a bit and simultaneously dropped some weight compared to the previous iterations.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 10-12-2022 at 11:43 AM..
Totally agree with what you said abouut the different parts getting more efficient. I think one thing to note about battery improvements is that as the energy density of batteries improve and as range improves, there's probably going to be a point where putting those energy density improvements to simply more range isn't that much of an attracting force. When that happens, then more of the energy density improvements can go towards making the battery lighter, the structural elements supporting the battery weight lighter, and thus the overall weight of the vehicle lighter and making it even more efficient per kWh of energy. The first glimpse of that in a production EV we've had so far is the revamp of the Model S and Model X last year where they both increased range a bit and simultaneously dropped some weight compared to the previous iterations.
Absolutely, this will be huge.
Already, at least with say, the Tesla Plaid... it's already reached a physics problem to the point where you literally can not make them accelerate any faster because it simply cannot gain traction to support the acceleration. There's a video that still shocks me... a brand new mid-engine C8 Corvette in full race-configuration... sitting next to a Tesla Plaid, at a drag strip. When the tree goes green, the Plaid pulls away from the Corvette like it's standing still. After the Tesla passes the quarter-mile mark... the C8 Corvette passes it several seconds later. The Tesla Plaid does the quarter mile in ~9 seconds... which is completely insane.
Already, at least with say, the Tesla Plaid... it's already reached a physics problem to the point where you literally can not make them accelerate any faster because it simply cannot gain traction to support the acceleration. There's a video that still shocks me... a brand new mid-engine C8 Corvette in full race-configuration... sitting next to a Tesla Plaid, at a drag strip. When the tree goes green, the Plaid pulls away from the Corvette like it's standing still. After the Tesla passes the quarter-mile mark... the C8 Corvette passes it several seconds later. The Tesla Plaid does the quarter mile in ~9 seconds... which is completely insane.
Yea, I'm excited to see how much efficiency can improve especially for vehicles less idiosyncratic than the Aptera (which I like a lot and appreciate, but understand it's not for everyone). I think on top of the saving weight as batteries improve to help with energy efficiency, it'll also be interesting to see what kind of new packaging of components happen with that as there are other kinds of efficiency like space efficiency for how much usable room you can have given an exterior packaging size. I also think that with battery improvements in price and energy density, we'll start to see some really interesting retrofits of older vehicles. I'd love to get my hands on a second or third gen Mitsubishi Delica with an EV powertrain, solar panels on the roof, and a foldout solar awning.
As for the Plaid, yea, it's nuts. That efficiency there isn't just that it has twice the energy efficiency per mile of a Prius while being a massive and roomy vehicle, but that the energy it has goes so efficiently towards getting you moving and so you have that incredible performance.
The Aptera in its three motor configuration and with its really slippery body is targeting 0-60 mph in 3.5 seconds. That is pretty damn fast especially for its targeted prices.
It's a very clear vision they have with this vehicle and they are thus far very far along--as in it appears they will make it to production. I've taken a look around this vehicle before and one thing that isn't noted in this video, but I think should be is that the vehicle is put together in many parts, especially with fairly common hardware which would make it pretty easy to both fix yourself and to do mods with.
There's also a voicing in this video of what the main point and use case of these solar panel electric vehicles are which was pretty succinct which is that these are basically more like range extenders in a way and that the measure of success isn't that every single mile is driven only from miles generated by the solar cells built into the vehicle but rather that they cover at least a significant amount of it so that you don't need to charge as much or potentially as often.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 10-20-2022 at 08:31 AM..
I agree with the criticisms of Sono Motors initial financial optimism and Lightyear's decision to focus on an uber-expensive halo car. I actually think Aptera going for the weird niche it has and concentrating on the US market makes fairly decent sense.
I agree with the criticisms of Sono Motors initial financial optimism and Lightyear's decision to focus on an uber-expensive halo car. I actually think Aptera going for the weird niche it has and concentrating on the US market makes fairly decent sense.
The problem is that even if you could convert 100%of the solar energy falling on the car to electromotive force, you wouldn't have a lot of power, and this goes double in an era when consumers are accustomed to high powered ICE and electric vehicles. The ceiling for this model is quite low, I think prohibitively low, to ever present an attractive proposition as the sole source of vehicle power.
And the incident solar energy on earth at sea level is about 1 kW per square meter - about 10 square feet. If you cover all the car's body panels with 100% efficient solar panels, you've got what, maybe 4kW? 5kW? https://www.solar-electric.com/learn...quare%20meter.
Now, if you could have inexpensive, flexible, efficient solar panels on an EV as a supplemental source of power that adds to range when the vehicle is in a well lit environment, then sure, why not - it's clean energy, and it didn't cost much to add in.
Last edited by OutdoorLover; 02-24-2023 at 04:12 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
