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But do you admit that there are much bigger forces at play that are completely outside of Philadelphia's control? I don't know how that can be ignored here.
When you have major flagship stores closing in NYC, of all places, to me that signals a HUGE shift in not just how people are buying things but the complete identity of retail, period.
Otherwise, it seems like you may be giving a little too much credit to city government. A quasi-public organization like the Center City District is really the kind of entity responsible for working to improve retail offerings, but you can only do so much to encourage.
At the end of the day, government really doesn't have much say in limiting types of businesses locating in privately-owned buildings (outside of legal zoning policies, obviously). But an outright ban on things like banks or cell phone stores would likely be legally challenged.
I don't know. Why is KOP blowing up with every store on the medium to high end while Philly continues to lose stores? I think, if anything, the national/global trends are putting pressure on all brick/mortar, and the locations that are the weakest are the ones not making it. I think Center City is weaker than KOP and that says a lot about the environment (people, money and trends), perception and government.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyb01
Thanks for correction!
There's a running question for me: what happened to Philadelphia's great families? Who are the heirs of Stephen Girard? Where are the Drexels, one of whom became an RC saint not long ago? Where are the current heirs of John Wanamaker? Diston? After the death of Dorrance "Dodo" Hamilton what's become of any philanthropy the Hamiltons were into? Lenfest is dead. Haas' sold Rohm and Haas to Dow so at least there's the William Penn Foundation. Annenberg Foundation? Almost like it never existed here nowadays.
Watch "The Whole Truth" on PBS. Watch the funding roll at the open and close. I never manage to catch "Articulate", but they probably have the same or similar.
I don't know. Why is KOP blowing up with every store on the medium to high end while Philly continues to lose stores? I think, if anything, the national/global trends are putting pressure on all brick/mortar, and the locations that are the weakest are the ones not making it. I think Center City is weaker than KOP and that says a lot about the environment (people, money and trends), perception and government.
Has Philly continued to lose stores, though? Obviously there's been many changes regarding tenancy, but, especially when you now factor in Market East and the "Fashion District" (formerly Gallery), I think it's pretty clear there's a net-plus over the past 10 years.
Again, more wealthy residents in CC (which is obvious) over the past 10-20 years + more tourism, does not equal a "weaker" market, right? Or am I seriously misunderstanding the math here? The article posted just today in fact states that Zara closed on Walnut because it was too successful and wanted more space that couldn't be accommodated.
Relative to KOP, of course Center City doesn't have the immense concentration of high-end retail. But as has been stated so many times, once KOP established itself as the de facto capital for high end retail in the Philly area decades ago, it has become essentially impossible for Philly to overtake that "crown." That may still change over time if the re-clustering of urban wealth continues.
But as it stands, the fact that KOP is simply much more central to the wealth concentration of the Philly area (i.e., the western/northern suburbs), it's really not a level playing field, regardless of perceptions and government.
Has Philly continued to lose stores, though? Obviously there's been many changes regarding tenancy, but, especially when you now factor in Market East and the "Fashion District" (formerly Gallery), I think it's pretty clear there's a net-plus over the past 10 years.
Again, more wealthy residents in CC (which is obvious) over the past 10-20 years + more tourism, does not equal a "weaker" market, right? I'm not trying to be flip, but am I seriously misunderstanding the math here?
Relative to KOP, of course Center City doesn't have the immense concentration of high-end retail. But as has been stated so many times, once KOP established itself as the de facto capital for high end retail in the Philly area decades ago, it has become essentially impossible for Philly to overtake that "crown." That may still change over time if the re-clustering of urban wealth continues.
But as it stands, the fact that KOP is simply much more central to the wealth concentration of the Philly area (i.e., the western/northern suburbs), it's really not a level playing field, regardless of perceptions and government.
I am not qualified to list all of the stores that have left, but there have been quite a few that have done so and with no equal (or better) replacement. Ralph Lauren left the Bellevue, the Under Armour store packed up not long after opening, Tobox (great shoe store) closed permanently with no new tenant, etc. That's coupled with phone stores, banks, and Wawa taking so many key locations where high quality retail could go.
On the flip side, who has been in to Boyd's since they revamped? I've been a few times and it is beautiful. More space, much more modern in look/feel, and they added in options for those outside the .1% (still for the 3%ers). Boyd's is truly fantastic, and is almost out of place in Center City, but it must be doing well enough.
About the question of whatever happened to -- and where are today's -- Philadelphia's great families? (Girard? Drexel Wanamaker? Diston Hamilton? etc.)
I wonder where are the statesmen or politicians in the mold of Kevin Bacon's father Edmund Norwood Bacon or Richardson Dilworth or Thatcher Longstreth? (Agree or disagree with their politics where are people of that stature.) Who are the great innovative thinkers and intellectuals in Philadelphia and the Philadelphia area?
I don't run in those circles, so maybe they're out there and I never heard of them. Which is very likely. I'd just like to hear who they are. Anyone have any names?
But besides that, I am very excited to see how well Philadelphia is doing as a city, the food, entertainment, culture, recreation is outstanding and always improving, and I talk the city up constantly, and its a 50/50 shot I will move back in the next few years, but that pesky retail component is frustrating to me, from a convenience standpoint and notoriety standpoint. And sorry if I sound dramatic, sometimes it might seem like that through words.
There's a reason Rodeo Drive is in Beverly Hills and not in downtown LA.
There's a reason the Country Club Plaza is in Kansas City's southwest quadrant, next to Johnson County, Kan., and not downtown or on its east side or north of the river.
The reason these tony shopping districts are where they are is the same reason our toniest shopping is in KofP:
Because that's closer to where the serious money is.
Philadelphia's serious money is concentrated in three neighborhoods: Rittenhouse Square, Society Hill and Chestnut Hill.
The last of those three is as convenient to KofP as it is to Center City, although you can take the train to the latter but have to drive on the damned, er, jammed Schuylkill to the former.
And the total population of the serious money (and its median household income) is smaller (and lower) than it is out on the Main Line and in much of Chester County.
Add unrivaled highway access to that mall site and you have a no-brainer.
Retailers who want to attract moneyed clients put their stores where the money is. It's not in Philadelphia in sufficient quantity yet.
And what Duderino said about the overall state of brick-and-mortar upmarket/luxury retail also plays a role. Saks is struggling, Lord & Taylor parent Hudson's Bay Company has pretty much sold most of its US real estate to WeWork, and rumors circulate that Neiman Marcus Group is also ailing.
Hey, they did turn the Barneys Co-op on Rittenhouse Square into a full-blown Barneys New York store. Anyone notice that?
(Aside for cpomp in particular, but some others might appreciate it: I've heard lamentations of a similar nature among some Germantowners concerning grocery retail. When the Fresh Grocer that was on Germantown's west side closed and decamped to the other side of the neighborhood at La Salle's invitation, there were sentiments expressed that a Trader Joe's or something like it would be ideal. No such luck: a Save-a-Lot replaced it instead. I know one of the people involved in the argument leading up to the building of the Save-a-Lot; he's a college classmate of mine and a Presbyterian minister in the neighborhood. He was on the side of the "Let's just get a supermarket in here, okay?" people. Germantown's demographics would support an Aldi but not a TJ's. That's also the reason periodic efforts to get Weavers Way Co-op to open a store in the neighborhood have proven fruitless: even though it's a co-op, it aims its product mix at an affluent clientele.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyb01
KoP is busy on weekends but not so much on weekdays, though. The adjacent UA theater plex is not very busy on weekdays either. The chain-ish restaurants right near the mall and theater area have seas of parking on weekdays too. Of course evenings are going to be different.
I would go more often though if there was better transit to it. But I'm not going to hold my breath over the NHSL spur.
I'm giving you permission to hold your breath (not that you really need it or would do so anyway).
A lot of forces are arrayed behind Getting It Done. The main thing that might torpedo this is the precarious nature of the transportation funding mechanism the boys in Harrisburg set up in the mid-1990s and tweaked late in Gov. Corbett's term. SEPTA already stands to lose much of the capital funding it provides four years from now, and if that truckers' lawsuit against the Turnpike Commission succeeds, the Commonwealth won't have much money to build any sort of transportation infrastructure at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by selhars
About the question of whatever happened to -- and where are today's -- Philadelphia's great families? (Girard? Drexel Wanamaker? Diston Hamilton? etc.)
I wonder where are the statesmen or politicians in the mold of Kevin Bacon's father Edmund Norwood Bacon or Richardson Dilworth or Thatcher Longstreth? (Agree or disagree with their politics where are people of that stature.) Who are the great innovative thinkers and intellectuals in Philadelphia and the Philadelphia area?
I don't run in those circles, so maybe they're out there and I never heard of them. Which is very likely. I'd just like to hear who they are. Anyone have any names?
Location: NYC based - Used to Live in Philly - Transplant from Miami
2,307 posts, read 2,766,054 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyb01
Wow! Hello! Wondered where you were.
Hi kby01 and Pennsport,
I have been busy, trying to put my life in order. haha.
I now live in Glenside and works in Manhattan.
I love metro Philly so much that I do not mind the travel. There is only so much of NYC I can take.
(My parents say that it is a sign that I am getting older and ready to settle down).
I don't know. Why is KOP blowing up with every store on the medium to high end while Philly continues to lose stores? I think, if anything, the national/global trends are putting pressure on all brick/mortar, and the locations that are the weakest are the ones not making it. I think Center City is weaker than KOP and that says a lot about the environment (people, money and trends), perception and government.
Agree that we don't have the resident income to support a full-out high-end retail section like Chicago, LA, NYC (three cities it seems for some reason we frequently compare ourselves to in the retail sector).
However, and I have no actual data to support this, but my guess is that the desire to shop in a major city has probably diminished as more and more people/families have access to cars and public transportation has expanded. For instance, and granted I may be an outlier, but I go shopping when I need a good amount of clothes or have moved and need furniture, etc... I would definitely drive to KOP where I have the option of literally 150 stores and can probably bang all of that out in a day rather than piece meal it from stores in Center City. Also, the introduction of several premium outlet "malls" (there are three within easy distance of Philly) takes away from the desire to shop at true retail prices. And, don't forget that KOP mall is more than just a mall. It's also the entertainment, gaming and social area of dozens of heavily populated and highly affluent suburbs. These individuals would never travel down 422 and then 76 for two hours (trust me, I occasionally make this commute) for goods and wares.
I really believe that Philly and the Philly area is simply a very different animal when compared to cities like Chicago and NY where city retail booms. Because of Philly's location, the residents have tons of brick and mortar shopping options that a city store could never compete with due to rent prices, parking, and other variables.
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